4 ms·

+1 Italian here. It's not just corruption here but almost every social interaction is built as an exchange of favours. From having a job to not getting screwed

+1 Italian here. It's not just corruption here but almost every social interaction is built as an exchange of favours. From having a job to not getting screwed from the auto shop, you live off a network of people owing you and you get in their circles by owing them back. It's a very powerful system because everyone understands the honour it's based on, you can't track it because it's immaterial and it's so widespread that you get huge pressure to cave in and become part of the system.

saint_fiasco 11y ago
>everyone understands the honour it's based on That's the terrible thing about corruption. Sometimes it's not based in selfishness, but in honor and generosity. It's just that old ideas about being honorable, a good provider, putting family and friends first and all that, are actually pretty terrible in modern bureaucracies.
- rubidium 11y ago
  So is it the modern bureaucracies that are terrible? Or the "old ideas"?
  - saint_fiasco 11y ago
    It's the mismatch. Honor and reputation work for small high-trust societies where everyone knows each other, but a nation state (not to mention a global economy) requires more robust enforcement mechanisms.
    - Balgair 11y ago
      On honor: It is that you can't really kick someone out of a nation state. In a smaller society, when you are dishonored, you leave the group. In a nation, you can't really do that, so we have made up ways to do so in a half way, namely prison. Honor doesn't really work in a nation state. Brett McKay has a lot to say about honor in the modern world starting here: http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/10/01/manly-honor-part-i-what-is-honor/ http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/10/01/manly-honor-part-i-...
      - selimthegrim 11y ago
        They took away my family's right to vote in Pakistan. I think you can come up with plenty of ways to kick people out of a nation state short of making them stateless (which I guess isn't kosher after WWII) I suppose another good example would be the Rohingya in Myanmar
busyant 11y ago
Moderately amusing story. I was born and raised in the USA, but my parents emigrated from Italy. About 20 years ago, my brother applied to grad school @ MIT (physics department). Somehow, my father got it in his mind that he would "help out" by contacting the US Congressman in our district (whom he knew somewhat well) so that the Congressman could contact the physics department and facilitate my brother's acceptance. Predictably, my brother blew a head-gasket. He tried explaining that: * he would feel incredible shame if he was accepted due to outside meddling. * the chances of this working to my brother's advantage were approximately zero. * it might even _reduce_ the likelihood of acceptance. The funniest part was that my father was bewildered by our reaction. His attitude was _"I don't understand you people. This is how you get things done!"_

saint_fiasco 11y ago

>everyone understands the honour it's based on That's the terrible thing about corruption. Sometimes it's not based in selfishness, but in honor and generosity. It's just that old ideas about being honorable, a good provider, putting family and friends first and all that, are actually pretty terrible in modern bureaucracies.

rubidium 11y ago
So is it the modern bureaucracies that are terrible? Or the "old ideas"?
- saint_fiasco 11y ago
  It's the mismatch. Honor and reputation work for small high-trust societies where everyone knows each other, but a nation state (not to mention a global economy) requires more robust enforcement mechanisms.
  - Balgair 11y ago
    On honor: It is that you can't really kick someone out of a nation state. In a smaller society, when you are dishonored, you leave the group. In a nation, you can't really do that, so we have made up ways to do so in a half way, namely prison. Honor doesn't really work in a nation state. Brett McKay has a lot to say about honor in the modern world starting here: http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/10/01/manly-honor-part-i-what-is-honor/ http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/10/01/manly-honor-part-i-...
    - selimthegrim 11y ago
      They took away my family's right to vote in Pakistan. I think you can come up with plenty of ways to kick people out of a nation state short of making them stateless (which I guess isn't kosher after WWII) I suppose another good example would be the Rohingya in Myanmar

busyant 11y ago

Moderately amusing story. I was born and raised in the USA, but my parents emigrated from Italy. About 20 years ago, my brother applied to grad school @ MIT (physics department). Somehow, my father got it in his mind that he would "help out" by contacting the US Congressman in our district (whom he knew somewhat well) so that the Congressman could contact the physics department and facilitate my brother's acceptance. Predictably, my brother blew a head-gasket. He tried explaining that: * he would feel incredible shame if he was accepted due to outside meddling. * the chances of this working to my brother's advantage were approximately zero. * it might even _reduce_ the likelihood of acceptance. The funniest part was that my father was bewildered by our reaction. His attitude was _"I don't understand you people. This is how you get things done!"_