4 ms·

Why is it generally okay to swear in front of men but generally not okay to swear in front of women? That's a pretty sexist, and condescending, point of view.

Why is it generally okay to swear in front of men but generally not okay to swear in front of women? That's a pretty sexist, and condescending, point of view. Sure, there are gender differences. But I don't think "genetic vulnerability to profanity" is one of them.

scintill76 11y ago
This feminist wiki says, "Any form of 'fuck' that assumes penetration is a bad thing for the receptive partner" is misogynist[1]. So I guess something like "Yeah, they really fucked us over on that one." could have been what he said, and it would be misogynistic and thus makes sense to be something that shouldn't be said around women especially. The next step is to eliminate saying it around men too, because misogyny hurts us all. Yes, I'm being half-sarcastic here. It seems like if you want to question this definition of misogyny, you have to concede that every such thing, like casual uses of the terms "trigger" and "microagression", is suspect. Why is "fuck" so acceptable to say around women that they feel left out when you try to abstain, but saying "forking" and "dongle" was a mini sexual assault that one time? [1] http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Guide_for_foul-mouthed_feminists?oldid=32221 http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Guide_for_foul-mouthed_fe...
- meowface 11y ago
  That seems like a bit of a strawman and overgeneralization. I personally think offense over "fuck", "fork", or "dongle" is absurd (beyond typical professionalism/politeness standards), but this is one branch of feminism finding "fuck" offensive, and in the "dongle" incident, one single woman who found it offensive at the time. Obviously not all women find these things offensive. Not all people (women or otherwise) use or advocate for the modern-tumblr definitions of "microaggression" or "trigger", either. You're acting like the article you linked is some sort of rulebook all women in technology abide by.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - scintill76 11y ago
    I'm surprised my comment was actually somewhat popular, so it may well have been interpreted differently than I meant. I was intending to sarcastically take the position that one feminist website is a rulebook for everyone, because that's how people seriously act all the time. The woman in the dongle fiasco believed that because she was offended, everyone should be, and the conference organizers apparently agreed. She had plenty of supporters -- was it really just "one single woman"? Maybe it's a bad example, because as the situation evolved she was being attacked (and in response, supported) more as a woman than as a professional maintaining certain standards. But I do believe a substantial chunk supported her position itself, a complaint primarily about sexism. On the other hand, the OP herself is in the gray (for now at least) for saying dick jokes are fine and the only sexism there is the lack of vulva jokes.[1] The fact that there is no rulebook was exactly my point. For every person wanting to analyze whether your anatomical/sexual reference is offensive to someone, there is someone else feeling singled out that you would take that care before saying it in front of them. I don't want to throw up my hands and give up, just point out that people act like the answers are easy but it's actually very complex. There's little consensus on proper behavior on these small scales, and both sides have tribal and exclusionary behaviors. Behavior of today's college students, in the US at least, suggests the Tumblr generation is growing and therefore a sizable contingent of people really will increasingly apply these standards to everyone else. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10760819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10760819 (you have to go up to parent to see the grayness, and I'm assuming it's the OP because she claimed so in another comment and has a sufficiently-aged account with the same name as the website)
tomp 11y ago
In my experience, with my friends, male friends are much more likely to swear than female. So it's reasonable to assume they would also be more accepting of other people swearing, and generalize this assumption to other people.
- meowface 11y ago
  That's fair; I can see why you'd have that viewpoint, in that case. In my own experience, my male and female friends all swear with about equal frequency. I've never noticed a trend like that myself. It might be area- and culture-dependent to some degree, maybe? I live on the US east coast.
  - tomp 11y ago
    Yes, very likely. Or language-dependent, as well - in English, "fuck" can very conveniently be placed almost everywhere, and has (IMO) lost a lot of its charge... In Sloveinan, many swear-words carry much stronger emphasis.
marrs 11y ago
You remind me of a time when one of my colleagues made a somewhat ribald comment, and my other colleague - the only woman in the room (whom, by the way, we treated in the way the author would have approved: as one of us) - reminded him that there was a lady present. I still keep in touch with her, so I'll be sure to pass on the message that she's both sexist and condescending.
- meowface 11y ago
  I can't really respond to this without knowing the actual content of the comment, and the context. But if it was literally him saying something like "what the fuck" or whatever, then yes, I think she was not being reasonable. If she were to say "I don't like that kind of language", that's fine, but to suggest ladies don't like that kind of language is a big overgeneralization on her part. I'm guessing it was a different kind of comment, though, given "ribald". In which case it's not just an issue of profanity anymore, and so her reaction may have been perfectly justified.
  - marrs 11y ago
    I think it was a sexual comment, or it may have been a gesture. It was a long time ago now, so I can't really remember. As far as I'm concerned, her reaction was justified whatever the context. If she'd had a different reaction, that would have been fine too. It's not reasonable to tell someone that they aren't entitled to a reaction.
humanrebar 11y ago
> That's a pretty sexist, and condescending, point of view. Have you lived in the South before? Men are raised that it's a sign of respect to be on their best behaviors around ladies. Shouldn't this count as cultural diversity and be respected?
- douche 11y ago
  No, because it is cis-gendered, heteronormative white culture. They don't get a seat at the table to discuss grievances and microaggressions. They're all descendants of brutish, evil plantation slave-owners who should pay for the crimes of people gone to worm-food before they were so much as a twinkle in their father's eye. :-)
  - humanrebar 11y ago
    I realize I need some neologisms.

scintill76 11y ago

This feminist wiki says, "Any form of 'fuck' that assumes penetration is a bad thing for the receptive partner" is misogynist[1]. So I guess something like "Yeah, they really fucked us over on that one." could have been what he said, and it would be misogynistic and thus makes sense to be something that shouldn't be said around women especially. The next step is to eliminate saying it around men too, because misogyny hurts us all. Yes, I'm being half-sarcastic here. It seems like if you want to question this definition of misogyny, you have to concede that every such thing, like casual uses of the terms "trigger" and "microagression", is suspect. Why is "fuck" so acceptable to say around women that they feel left out when you try to abstain, but saying "forking" and "dongle" was a mini sexual assault that one time? [1] http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Guide_for_foul-mouthed_feminists?oldid=32221 http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Guide_for_foul-mouthed_fe...

meowface 11y ago
That seems like a bit of a strawman and overgeneralization. I personally think offense over "fuck", "fork", or "dongle" is absurd (beyond typical professionalism/politeness standards), but this is one branch of feminism finding "fuck" offensive, and in the "dongle" incident, one single woman who found it offensive at the time. Obviously not all women find these things offensive. Not all people (women or otherwise) use or advocate for the modern-tumblr definitions of "microaggression" or "trigger", either. You're acting like the article you linked is some sort of rulebook all women in technology abide by.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- scintill76 11y ago
  I'm surprised my comment was actually somewhat popular, so it may well have been interpreted differently than I meant. I was intending to sarcastically take the position that one feminist website is a rulebook for everyone, because that's how people seriously act all the time. The woman in the dongle fiasco believed that because she was offended, everyone should be, and the conference organizers apparently agreed. She had plenty of supporters -- was it really just "one single woman"? Maybe it's a bad example, because as the situation evolved she was being attacked (and in response, supported) more as a woman than as a professional maintaining certain standards. But I do believe a substantial chunk supported her position itself, a complaint primarily about sexism. On the other hand, the OP herself is in the gray (for now at least) for saying dick jokes are fine and the only sexism there is the lack of vulva jokes.[1] The fact that there is no rulebook was exactly my point. For every person wanting to analyze whether your anatomical/sexual reference is offensive to someone, there is someone else feeling singled out that you would take that care before saying it in front of them. I don't want to throw up my hands and give up, just point out that people act like the answers are easy but it's actually very complex. There's little consensus on proper behavior on these small scales, and both sides have tribal and exclusionary behaviors. Behavior of today's college students, in the US at least, suggests the Tumblr generation is growing and therefore a sizable contingent of people really will increasingly apply these standards to everyone else. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10760819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10760819 (you have to go up to parent to see the grayness, and I'm assuming it's the OP because she claimed so in another comment and has a sufficiently-aged account with the same name as the website)

tomp 11y ago

In my experience, with my friends, male friends are much more likely to swear than female. So it's reasonable to assume they would also be more accepting of other people swearing, and generalize this assumption to other people.

meowface 11y ago
That's fair; I can see why you'd have that viewpoint, in that case. In my own experience, my male and female friends all swear with about equal frequency. I've never noticed a trend like that myself. It might be area- and culture-dependent to some degree, maybe? I live on the US east coast.
- tomp 11y ago
  Yes, very likely. Or language-dependent, as well - in English, "fuck" can very conveniently be placed almost everywhere, and has (IMO) lost a lot of its charge... In Sloveinan, many swear-words carry much stronger emphasis.

marrs 11y ago

You remind me of a time when one of my colleagues made a somewhat ribald comment, and my other colleague - the only woman in the room (whom, by the way, we treated in the way the author would have approved: as one of us) - reminded him that there was a lady present. I still keep in touch with her, so I'll be sure to pass on the message that she's both sexist and condescending.

meowface 11y ago
I can't really respond to this without knowing the actual content of the comment, and the context. But if it was literally him saying something like "what the fuck" or whatever, then yes, I think she was not being reasonable. If she were to say "I don't like that kind of language", that's fine, but to suggest ladies don't like that kind of language is a big overgeneralization on her part. I'm guessing it was a different kind of comment, though, given "ribald". In which case it's not just an issue of profanity anymore, and so her reaction may have been perfectly justified.
- marrs 11y ago
  I think it was a sexual comment, or it may have been a gesture. It was a long time ago now, so I can't really remember. As far as I'm concerned, her reaction was justified whatever the context. If she'd had a different reaction, that would have been fine too. It's not reasonable to tell someone that they aren't entitled to a reaction.

humanrebar 11y ago

> That's a pretty sexist, and condescending, point of view. Have you lived in the South before? Men are raised that it's a sign of respect to be on their best behaviors around ladies. Shouldn't this count as cultural diversity and be respected?

douche 11y ago
No, because it is cis-gendered, heteronormative white culture. They don't get a seat at the table to discuss grievances and microaggressions. They're all descendants of brutish, evil plantation slave-owners who should pay for the crimes of people gone to worm-food before they were so much as a twinkle in their father's eye. :-)
- humanrebar 11y ago
  I realize I need some neologisms.