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She had me until the very end, with the anecdote about the guy apologizing for swearing in front of her. I would apologize if I said "fuck" near my country's p

She had me until the very end, with the anecdote about the guy apologizing for swearing in front of her. I would apologize if I said "fuck" near my country's president, or even the president of my small-ish company. Both of whom are male. It's a sign of respect. In the context of women, I see it in a similar light to holding the door open for a lady. It isn't me assuming she's too weak to open a door, it's just a common courtesy. I'm genuinely sorry that the author was offended by the guy apologizing for saying "fuck" near her. I can't speak for him, and perhaps he was a total douchebag. But perhaps he was aware that on average men can be more crude than women, and in a professional (male-dominated, numerically speaking!) setting like that one, it's prudent to avoid language that could make people feel uncomfortable.

seunosewa 11y ago
I didn't get the impression that she was offended by the guy who apologized for saying "fuck" near her. I think it just made her feel more self-conscious.
bramblerose 11y ago
> it's prudent to avoid language that could make people feel uncomfortable. The weird thing is not that he apologized (that's reasonable), the weird thing is that he apologized /to her/ (and not to the group as a whole).
- scintill76 11y ago
  What if the reason she was "singled out" was actually that she was the only person the swearer didn't know well enough to feel OK about swearing around? Or was the only one he considered to be in earshot? Or she was just the closest and he felt he should make some gesture because he regretted it, but it wasn't bad enough to personally apologize to every last person? I guess the author's impression trumps ours (and only the swearer's honest account of his thoughts could trump hers), but she didn't really address those, so I have some doubts on whether it's as clear-cut as you say.
  - leaverou 11y ago
    Nope. There were many people around, and it was clear that he didn’t know all of them. There were people he didn't know just as close as I was. He apologized only to me, nobody else.
    - scintill76 11y ago
      Thanks for the clarification. If you don't mind sharing more and if you remember, what was the exact usage of the word? It seems like some of them could be construed as sexist, as I referred to in another comment. So maybe that was why he was apologizing. I assume you didn't think it was sexist (or you would have said so), but maybe he was concerned it could be interpreted that way. (If that's the case, he shouldn't have said it regardless of who was around, but once he said it, apologizing with some amount of sincerity would be better than not apologizing.)
      - leaverou 11y ago
        It's been years but I think it was just exclamation. Like "oh, fuck!".
duncan_bayne 11y ago
> I would apologize if I said "fuck" near my country's president I'd be pretty pleased if I managed to hold down a conversation with any of our political 'leaders' that didn't involve a good many expletives.
avz 11y ago
You're missing this important point: > His effort to be courteous made me feel that I was different, the odd one out, the one we must be careful around and treat like a fragile flower. We should respect all our colleagues equally regardless of the type of sexual organs they happen to be equipped with (and regardless of other irrelevant characteristics). Singling out one group over others for additional "respect" is what makes them feel different and out of place. In the setting of this anecdote her role was not that of a "lady", but that of an "engineer".
- scintill76 11y ago
  And you missed the point of the GP poster. The GP would have apologized for this to anyone he didn't know well. Why would it be GP's fault for "making" someone feel "out of place" by treating them with a certain respect that has nothing to do with any personal characteristics? Her role wasn't "lady" or "engineer", it was "person I don't an F-bomb-level rapport with." At least that's the main point of GP's post. What the guy in the story was thinking is debatable I guess, but I don't see much point since we can't know.
  - marrs 11y ago
    My interpretation of the GP's comment was that he believes the man in the article was simply treating the author with the same common courtesy he treats all women with. My parents' generation used to call this "being a gentleman". Speaking of my parents, my mother brought me up to always be a gentleman around ladies, which included things like not using bad language. This was quickly drilled out of me when I entered the real world. Dave Chappelle has an amusing stand-up routine about this subject called "Chivalry is dead, and women killed it"
    - dajohnson89 11y ago
      GP here. The correct interpretation of my comment is that it was complete bullshit, judging by the downvotes it received. Hope that clears everything up.
    - scintill76 11y ago
oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
Would you seriously hold a door open for a woman, but not a man? That's ... weird.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  Some dudes get really testy about having doors opened for them (which is all the more reason to do it).
  - Chris2048 11y ago
    Indeed; I always slam the door on them as they approach, as a sign of respect.
madaxe_again 11y ago
My company has a culture in which we all swear like pirates. This makes this whole question moot. Even the softly spoken polite types end up sounding like they were raised in the gutter by the end of week two. Additionally, swearing is a social signal that typically bonds people, as it's a "we can say these things together" type affair. We swear in front of and with clients (not all - there are some where we know it would be a lead balloon). We talk like human fucking beings. Folks tend to find this refreshing, and it results in a more relaxed atmosphere, and more relaxed interpersonal and client relationships. Franky, if someone is offended by my language, then I see that as strictly their problem, and I won't apologise for it.
pacomerh 11y ago
You totally missed the point on this part. She wasn't actually offended, it was the one thing that made her feel different from the rest, which was the closest thing to feeling sexism. Had she been offended, she would have not written this article imo.

seunosewa 11y ago

I didn't get the impression that she was offended by the guy who apologized for saying "fuck" near her. I think it just made her feel more self-conscious.

bramblerose 11y ago

> it's prudent to avoid language that could make people feel uncomfortable. The weird thing is not that he apologized (that's reasonable), the weird thing is that he apologized /to her/ (and not to the group as a whole).

scintill76 11y ago
What if the reason she was "singled out" was actually that she was the only person the swearer didn't know well enough to feel OK about swearing around? Or was the only one he considered to be in earshot? Or she was just the closest and he felt he should make some gesture because he regretted it, but it wasn't bad enough to personally apologize to every last person? I guess the author's impression trumps ours (and only the swearer's honest account of his thoughts could trump hers), but she didn't really address those, so I have some doubts on whether it's as clear-cut as you say.
- leaverou 11y ago
  Nope. There were many people around, and it was clear that he didn’t know all of them. There were people he didn't know just as close as I was. He apologized only to me, nobody else.
  - scintill76 11y ago
    Thanks for the clarification. If you don't mind sharing more and if you remember, what was the exact usage of the word? It seems like some of them could be construed as sexist, as I referred to in another comment. So maybe that was why he was apologizing. I assume you didn't think it was sexist (or you would have said so), but maybe he was concerned it could be interpreted that way. (If that's the case, he shouldn't have said it regardless of who was around, but once he said it, apologizing with some amount of sincerity would be better than not apologizing.)
    - leaverou 11y ago
      It's been years but I think it was just exclamation. Like "oh, fuck!".

duncan_bayne 11y ago

> I would apologize if I said "fuck" near my country's president I'd be pretty pleased if I managed to hold down a conversation with any of our political 'leaders' that didn't involve a good many expletives.

avz 11y ago

You're missing this important point: > His effort to be courteous made me feel that I was different, the odd one out, the one we must be careful around and treat like a fragile flower. We should respect all our colleagues equally regardless of the type of sexual organs they happen to be equipped with (and regardless of other irrelevant characteristics). Singling out one group over others for additional "respect" is what makes them feel different and out of place. In the setting of this anecdote her role was not that of a "lady", but that of an "engineer".

scintill76 11y ago
And you missed the point of the GP poster. The GP would have apologized for this to anyone he didn't know well. Why would it be GP's fault for "making" someone feel "out of place" by treating them with a certain respect that has nothing to do with any personal characteristics? Her role wasn't "lady" or "engineer", it was "person I don't an F-bomb-level rapport with." At least that's the main point of GP's post. What the guy in the story was thinking is debatable I guess, but I don't see much point since we can't know.
- marrs 11y ago
  My interpretation of the GP's comment was that he believes the man in the article was simply treating the author with the same common courtesy he treats all women with. My parents' generation used to call this "being a gentleman". Speaking of my parents, my mother brought me up to always be a gentleman around ladies, which included things like not using bad language. This was quickly drilled out of me when I entered the real world. Dave Chappelle has an amusing stand-up routine about this subject called "Chivalry is dead, and women killed it"
  - dajohnson89 11y ago
    GP here. The correct interpretation of my comment is that it was complete bullshit, judging by the downvotes it received. Hope that clears everything up.
  - scintill76 11y ago

oneeyedpigeon 11y ago

Would you seriously hold a door open for a woman, but not a man? That's ... weird.

GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
Some dudes get really testy about having doors opened for them (which is all the more reason to do it).
- Chris2048 11y ago
  Indeed; I always slam the door on them as they approach, as a sign of respect.

madaxe_again 11y ago

My company has a culture in which we all swear like pirates. This makes this whole question moot. Even the softly spoken polite types end up sounding like they were raised in the gutter by the end of week two. Additionally, swearing is a social signal that typically bonds people, as it's a "we can say these things together" type affair. We swear in front of and with clients (not all - there are some where we know it would be a lead balloon). We talk like human fucking beings. Folks tend to find this refreshing, and it results in a more relaxed atmosphere, and more relaxed interpersonal and client relationships. Franky, if someone is offended by my language, then I see that as strictly their problem, and I won't apologise for it.

pacomerh 11y ago

You totally missed the point on this part. She wasn't actually offended, it was the one thing that made her feel different from the rest, which was the closest thing to feeling sexism. Had she been offended, she would have not written this article imo.