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Welfare. These low-income and minority kids know they won't starve to death, they think that learning is "acting white". Here's the result. Oh well, better for

by olegk 17y ago

Welfare. These low-income and minority kids know they won't starve to death, they think that learning is "acting white". Here's the result. Oh well, better for the rest of us.

lonestar 17y ago
"Oh well, better for the rest of us." Do you really think so? I'd prefer to live in a society where everyone was well-educated, or at least enjoyed learning. I think you'd find there is some spillover benefit for yourself to be had from "these low-income and minority kids" receiving high-quality education.
- olegk 17y ago
  I'd prefer to live in the society where all people would have unlimited supply of food, water, heath care, wouldn't kill each other, have lots of fun. Unfortunately this kind of "magical" thinking is a very weak argument, and just doesn't work. Welcome to the real world.
  - anigbrowl 17y ago
    If we're being hard-headed, we should also consider the possibility that intelligence is just not evenly distributed, and while schools should seek to improve as many students by as much as possible, we need an economic infrastructure that can make productive and self-sustaining use of less intelligent people as well as smart ones. In short, dumb people are not going away, so there needs to be a means for them to earn a legal living.
    - olegk 17y ago
      Well, they way system is set up right now, it obviously doesn't work, wouldn't you agree? Basically, the government is throwing money at poor/minorities, and they end up having more kids. Same exact thing happens in African countries. Every time somebody donates money/food, it goes towards procreation, not improvement of the quality of life or education. I remember one successful African story. This group of volunteers instead of building a water well decided to involve the residents in the process. So they served as architects, while locals were doing all the hard labor. The results were really good - locals knew how to support the well. They became self-sufficient. That, in my opinion, is the solution. It's a slow process, but I don't see many alternatives.
anigbrowl 17y ago
I dispute this assertion. When I was growing up, Ireland was ethnically homogenous with poor economic security and hostility to welfare cases like those of single mothers (for religious reasons), but there was still a distribution of ability and academic application. there were poor kids that studied hard and rich kids that didn't give a fuck, though more of the former than the latter, since high schools there employ streaming. You need more evidence for this assertion that the existence of welfare automatically results in poor academic outcomes. I suggest that the disparity of result may have always existed, but in the past there were fewer women in the workforce and more jobs in manual labor such as manufacturing etc., so that a lack of academic achievement didn't necessarily result in economic insecurity.
- olegk 17y ago
  Ireland is very white. So there's no "acting white" problem.
  - anigbrowl 17y ago
    Yes - and yet there is still a range of educational outcomes, from excellent to abysmal. The country has a more generous welfare regime than when I was growing up, but AFAIK this hasn't substantially altered the educational landscape. So your argument that poor educational outcomes can be attributed to inverted racism doesn't stand up. It may well be a factor, but you appear to be arguing that poor non-white kids with a bad attitude are primarily responsible for dragging down overall results, and I don't agree.
cabalamat 17y ago
Finland has more of a welfare state than the USA. Finland also has better school achievement.
- WestSeattleDan 17y ago
  Minnesota has better school achievement than the USA. There must be something to Northern latitude icy winters producing improved academic achievement. Canada is also better than USA in math. Maybe not using the $100 million NSF grant created math books and a few other publisher clones of same has a positive effect.

by olegk 17y ago

Welfare. These low-income and minority kids know they won't starve to death, they think that learning is "acting white". Here's the result. Oh well, better for the rest of us.

lonestar 17y ago

"Oh well, better for the rest of us." Do you really think so? I'd prefer to live in a society where everyone was well-educated, or at least enjoyed learning. I think you'd find there is some spillover benefit for yourself to be had from "these low-income and minority kids" receiving high-quality education.

olegk 17y ago
I'd prefer to live in the society where all people would have unlimited supply of food, water, heath care, wouldn't kill each other, have lots of fun. Unfortunately this kind of "magical" thinking is a very weak argument, and just doesn't work. Welcome to the real world.
- anigbrowl 17y ago
  If we're being hard-headed, we should also consider the possibility that intelligence is just not evenly distributed, and while schools should seek to improve as many students by as much as possible, we need an economic infrastructure that can make productive and self-sustaining use of less intelligent people as well as smart ones. In short, dumb people are not going away, so there needs to be a means for them to earn a legal living.
  - olegk 17y ago
    Well, they way system is set up right now, it obviously doesn't work, wouldn't you agree? Basically, the government is throwing money at poor/minorities, and they end up having more kids. Same exact thing happens in African countries. Every time somebody donates money/food, it goes towards procreation, not improvement of the quality of life or education. I remember one successful African story. This group of volunteers instead of building a water well decided to involve the residents in the process. So they served as architects, while locals were doing all the hard labor. The results were really good - locals knew how to support the well. They became self-sufficient. That, in my opinion, is the solution. It's a slow process, but I don't see many alternatives.

anigbrowl 17y ago

I dispute this assertion. When I was growing up, Ireland was ethnically homogenous with poor economic security and hostility to welfare cases like those of single mothers (for religious reasons), but there was still a distribution of ability and academic application. there were poor kids that studied hard and rich kids that didn't give a fuck, though more of the former than the latter, since high schools there employ streaming. You need more evidence for this assertion that the existence of welfare automatically results in poor academic outcomes. I suggest that the disparity of result may have always existed, but in the past there were fewer women in the workforce and more jobs in manual labor such as manufacturing etc., so that a lack of academic achievement didn't necessarily result in economic insecurity.

olegk 17y ago
Ireland is very white. So there's no "acting white" problem.
- anigbrowl 17y ago
  Yes - and yet there is still a range of educational outcomes, from excellent to abysmal. The country has a more generous welfare regime than when I was growing up, but AFAIK this hasn't substantially altered the educational landscape. So your argument that poor educational outcomes can be attributed to inverted racism doesn't stand up. It may well be a factor, but you appear to be arguing that poor non-white kids with a bad attitude are primarily responsible for dragging down overall results, and I don't agree.

cabalamat 17y ago

Finland has more of a welfare state than the USA. Finland also has better school achievement.

WestSeattleDan 17y ago
Minnesota has better school achievement than the USA. There must be something to Northern latitude icy winters producing improved academic achievement. Canada is also better than USA in math. Maybe not using the $100 million NSF grant created math books and a few other publisher clones of same has a positive effect.