8 ms·

My first reaction to his arrest was joy and then I saw comments about him getting "beat up in jail" to put it lightly. People who say those kinds of things are

by JayHost 11y ago

My first reaction to his arrest was joy and then I saw comments about him getting "beat up in jail" to put it lightly. People who say those kinds of things are no better than him. Possibly worse. The solution to dealing with people like him is to be able to separate them from society or fix the system so it can no longer be exploited so "easily". He may have hurt a lot of people but it's been through proxy as far as we know. Like Drone strikes, if you can't see the damage you're doing you can't feel guilty about it. Like Morgan on the Walking Dead. I do believe Martin is a good guy on the wrong path. It's easy to come together to have shared hatred for this guy and it's hard to realize I can do better as a human being with empathy towards someone who is broken; sad and probably doesn't understand why people hate him. He's just being "successful" as it was always defined to him. Like the Boston Bomber. Getting "Revenge" does not stop the perpetual cycle violence and misbehavior. The Wolf of Wall Street was a glorification of this type of behavior and a lot of people saw Jordan in that movie as a "Hero"

AVTizzle 11y ago
>>The Wolf of Wall Street was a glorification of this type of behavior and a lot of people saw Jordan in that movie as a "Hero" Interesting analogy, and I'm glad you pointed this out. I was disgusted by Wolf of Wall Street, and even more disgusted by how exalted Belfort became after. So many friends and acquaintances admired and aspired towards what they saw in the film - that was the worst part of it for me. I just can't relate.
- spdionis 11y ago
  OT but i'm happy to see someone else was also disgusted so much by that movie. I'm not a moralist but the glorification of such degenerated values in that movie was horrible to watch.
  - scrollaway 11y ago
    The glorification in the movie was there to make this exact point. Be disgusted that people took it as some sort of how-to be successful guide. Don't shoot the messenger.
    - spdionis 11y ago
      That's the meaning I actually took from the movie, but I'm still not sure that was the purpose of the authors. A lot of people didn't understand it that way anyway. Edit: tried to take, because it's still hard to assimilate
  - samstave 11y ago
    I loved the movie! It was great inspiration for me to hope that one day I could hope to take a bunch of SSRI drugs and go on a murderous rampage in some random Wall Street hedge fund office! (I'm mostly kidding)
  - rconti 11y ago
    Loved the movie. Doesn't mean I want to be like him. One of my favorite movies, The Talented Mr Ripley, leaves you feeling unsatisfied about the conclusion-- not a typical Hollywood ending. Boiler Room is also a favorite, which of course is related to Wolf of Wall Street.
- wdmeldon 11y ago
  Anyone who got that message from the film is completely oblivious to its point. A similar movie with a more extreme premise would be American Psycho. No one aspired to kill prostitutes after seeing that film, I have no idea why Wolf of Wall Street is different.
- discreteevent 11y ago
  I went to a talk by Alan Parker (probably more than 20 years ago). In it he talked about watching a screening of his film Midnight Express. There is a scene in the film where Billy, the main character, bites out the tongue of another man at the end of a fight. He intended the scene to be tragic. It was supposed to show how prison had brought Billy to a place where he had completely lost everything he used to be. But, to Parker's dismay, some of the audience cheered because all they could see was the vengeance that Billy was taking on the other character. Parker said that he resolved after that not to use violence in a film in that way again.
- sanderjd 11y ago
  To go anecdote for anecdote, I have never met anyone who has expressed admiration of or aspiration to what they saw in that film. I think your disgust and inability to relate is the more common view, but maybe I'm just naive.
  - isolate 11y ago
    A lot of people in finance think it's awesome, and generally speaking those guys run in different circles from computer people. Think coke and strippers.
uptown 11y ago
"I do believe Martin is a good guy on the wrong path." What makes you think he's a good guy? All the evidence points to the contrary, both morally and apparently ethically and legally based on this indictment.
FLUX-YOU 11y ago
>Like Morgan on the Walking Dead. I do believe Martin is a good guy on the wrong path. Not sure how you can defend that with this floating around. I’m definitely the real fucking deal. This is not a fucking act. I threatened that fucking guy and his fucking kids because he fucking took $3 million from me and he ended up paying me back. He called my bluff. He said, “You’re not fucking going to go after me.” [I said] “Yes I motherfucking will.” I had two guys parked outside of his house for six months watching his every fucking move. I can get down. I don’t think RZA knows that. I think he thinks I’m some powder puff white guy CEO that’s got too much money. No. No, no, no. http://mic.com/articles/125657/turing-ceo-martin-shkreli-wanted-to-make-former-colleague-and-family-homeless http://mic.com/articles/125657/turing-ceo-martin-shkreli-wan... http://hiphopdx.com/interviews/id.2825/title.martin-shkreli-plans-to-bail-out-bobby-shmurda http://hiphopdx.com/interviews/id.2825/title.martin-shkreli-... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10750928 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10750928
- Disruptive_Dave 11y ago
  I don't know, I take that as a nerdy white dude who desperately seeks attention trying to impress the hip hop heads out there (that kind of talk is extremely common in the rap game).
  - foobarqux 11y ago
    I don't know whether he meant that particular statement but if you watch his stream for a while it becomes clear that he is a delusional sociopath.
    - pdeuchler 11y ago
      or, you know, an insulated, spoiled kid. but that would require empathy
      - foobarqux 11y ago
        He grew up poor.
ascendantlogic 11y ago
While you are correct that hoping he gets beat up in jail isn't right, that does not suddenly mean he's some sort of martyr. We are accountable for our actions and his actions were to buy up drugs that people depend on and then gouge the shit out of them because they have few/no other options. No matter what way you slice it he is not a "good guy".
Grantarvey 11y ago
This is so important. I also believe that this is the central conflict between the disenfranchised and the entitled. Yes, we despise evil, but we do nothing but help create it by turning on those we perceive as bad people the second we're given the go ahead. "I can do better as a human being with empathy towards someone who is broken; sad and probably doesn't understand why people hate him." If we ever want to stop hatred, if we ever want to stop violence, if we ever want to fundamentally stop the same alienated people who turn to mass violence as their destructive outlets, we have to do it with empathy. This article is great, and I post it every time the gun control argument comes up after every mass shooting that comes up: http://markmanson.net/school-shootings http://markmanson.net/school-shootings Empathy is the only thing that will save us. It might not save us all, but we have to try.
homulilly 11y ago
I agree with you on the jail comments not being appropriate but doing something through proxy doesn't make you less culpable. drone pilots still get ptsd (the ones with a conscience at least). Shkreli isn't a good guy on the wrong path, he's an actual psychopath and while I honestly don't think any non-violent criminals "deserve" the hell that is US prison, if it keeps him from exploiting and harming more people it's a net gain for society and that's what's important.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  it's a net gain for society and that's what's important https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_monster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_monster (Assumes cardinal utility, but it still works.)
  - homulilly 11y ago
    Not talking about utilitarianism, I'm talking about social stability.
    - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
      I'm not sure how incarcerating people deemed to prove a "net social loss" by some nebulous criteria promotes social stability. Hell, if we're going to be this loose, why not just kill them so no resources are spent for prisoner care?
    - RIMR 11y ago
      Have you tried some self-awareness? That might help you understand the point being made.
justinator 11y ago
> if you can't see the damage you're doing you can't feel > guilty about it. According to this piece, they feel guilty about it, Former Drone Pilots Denounce 'Morally Outrageous’ Program | NBC News https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ1BC0g_PbQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ1BC0g_PbQ
baq 11y ago
there are people that are good, but either mislead or on the wrong path of some sort. in this case, the person lacks certain part of human-ness called empathy, which you call out; that's a clinical condition called sociopathy. you may notice the irony of invoking empathy on someone who doesn't have it and likely doesn't understand it, having never felt it. high functioning sociopaths can be a very serious danger to any society they're in and you have a great example here.
stephenboyd 11y ago
He doesn't understand why people hate him because he can't step down from his ego trip enough to honestly consider the consequences of his actions. Of all the maligned people in the news deserving of sympathy, an unrepentant Wall Street CEO gloating about profiting by unconscionable means shouldn't rise to consideration. The reason there's so much antipathy lately toward white-collar criminals is backlash against judges and prosecutors being sympathetic and lenient toward their fellow clean-cut professionals. That antipathy has only manifested in angry protests and op-eds by the powerless, not the prosecutorial and judicial decisions that Shkreli is in the hands of now. You could say we're all good guys on some kind of path. The typical third-world warlord is 'just being "successful" as it was always defined to him.' Everyone should get society's best attempt at impartial justice and a compassionate, non-violent, and restorative treatment. But poor folks like Eric Garner are the ones who've been lacking this justice. Shkreli will probably get probation, a fine, and some community service like the handful of executives offered up after the last financial crisis.
wellpast 11y ago
Anyone who doesn't periodically reflect on the consequences of their actions is a bad person. Especially in a world in which our actions are increasingly being done "through proxy".
grandalf 11y ago
I don't think anyone is comparing the moral code of this guy compared with the moral code of the people who are outraged about him. Like most businesspeople he probably adopts the ethos of getting away with what he can within the law, and possibly bending the law where he can get away with it. Google's offshore profit laundering system is an example of a similar approach. I think it's a mistake to believe this guy is all that different from average in his moral behavior. Most of us never get the opportunity to price pharmaceuticals, but chances are most business owners don't simply give away the product to those who want it. Differentiating between customers wanting and needing a product is a slippery slope.
Lawtonfogle 11y ago
>I do believe Martin is a good guy on the wrong path. In the 'even the worst guy in the world is a good guy once you look past what ever issues result in them being evil' way? >He's just being "successful" as it was always defined to him. There are SO many ways I could run with this. Honestly, I think one could try to make the argument that there are no evil people, just broken ones. Is that what you are trying to say? If not, I find it hard to justify this guy as a good guy otherwise.
pessimizer 11y ago
>My first reaction to his arrest was joy and then I saw comments about him getting "beat up in jail" to put it lightly. >People who say those kinds of things are no better than him. Possibly worse. If wishing bad things would happen to someone who has done bad things and actually raising the price of AIDS drugs fiftyfold to get rich are anywhere near each other in your moral calculus, I'm terrified of your moral calculus (especially that it may be common.)
- logfromblammo 11y ago
  The way I imagine it, rather than getting beaten up, the guy is simply held down and cut once with a razor. The other inmates take turns spitting into his wound and saying, "I wish I could afford the medications that keep my HIV under control. And now you do, too." But I just imagine that. It's not like I would ever attempt to actually set up such a thing. Or I imagine that he goes in, and most everyone is kept segregated under extremely high security, with leg shackles and spit masks. He is put into a cell, and his cell mate has a horribly scarred face, but a bright, friendly grin, insomuch as the scars allow it. That night, he wakes up, unable to move, as the razor blade digs into his face. "I used to have that pretty face. Why should you get to keep it?" The next morning, his cell mate is taken away to solitary. A few weeks later, after his wounds heal, he gets a new cell mate. Lo, it's Martin Shkreli! So he flashes a bright, friendly grin as he thinks about his hidden razor blade. Rod Serling narrates us out, talking about the prison where all the other prisoners are copies of you. We need to imagine prison as a terrible place, where bad people get punished as they rightly deserve, because we need to believe that putting people inside actually somehow serves justice in a useful way. He won't get beat up in jail because he deserves it, but because he will find no one inside willing to watch his back, and the other inmates will attempt to extort some of that pharma-CEO cash out of him while he is within their reach.
  - canicode 11y ago
    I felt sick reading that, I think you need to get yourself checked out.
    - 11y ago
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

by JayHost 11y ago

AVTizzle 11y ago

>>The Wolf of Wall Street was a glorification of this type of behavior and a lot of people saw Jordan in that movie as a "Hero" Interesting analogy, and I'm glad you pointed this out. I was disgusted by Wolf of Wall Street, and even more disgusted by how exalted Belfort became after. So many friends and acquaintances admired and aspired towards what they saw in the film - that was the worst part of it for me. I just can't relate.

spdionis 11y ago
OT but i'm happy to see someone else was also disgusted so much by that movie. I'm not a moralist but the glorification of such degenerated values in that movie was horrible to watch.
- scrollaway 11y ago
  The glorification in the movie was there to make this exact point. Be disgusted that people took it as some sort of how-to be successful guide. Don't shoot the messenger.
  - spdionis 11y ago
    That's the meaning I actually took from the movie, but I'm still not sure that was the purpose of the authors. A lot of people didn't understand it that way anyway. Edit: tried to take, because it's still hard to assimilate
- samstave 11y ago
  I loved the movie! It was great inspiration for me to hope that one day I could hope to take a bunch of SSRI drugs and go on a murderous rampage in some random Wall Street hedge fund office! (I'm mostly kidding)
- rconti 11y ago
  Loved the movie. Doesn't mean I want to be like him. One of my favorite movies, The Talented Mr Ripley, leaves you feeling unsatisfied about the conclusion-- not a typical Hollywood ending. Boiler Room is also a favorite, which of course is related to Wolf of Wall Street.
wdmeldon 11y ago
Anyone who got that message from the film is completely oblivious to its point. A similar movie with a more extreme premise would be American Psycho. No one aspired to kill prostitutes after seeing that film, I have no idea why Wolf of Wall Street is different.
discreteevent 11y ago
I went to a talk by Alan Parker (probably more than 20 years ago). In it he talked about watching a screening of his film Midnight Express. There is a scene in the film where Billy, the main character, bites out the tongue of another man at the end of a fight. He intended the scene to be tragic. It was supposed to show how prison had brought Billy to a place where he had completely lost everything he used to be. But, to Parker's dismay, some of the audience cheered because all they could see was the vengeance that Billy was taking on the other character. Parker said that he resolved after that not to use violence in a film in that way again.
sanderjd 11y ago
To go anecdote for anecdote, I have never met anyone who has expressed admiration of or aspiration to what they saw in that film. I think your disgust and inability to relate is the more common view, but maybe I'm just naive.
- isolate 11y ago
  A lot of people in finance think it's awesome, and generally speaking those guys run in different circles from computer people. Think coke and strippers.

uptown 11y ago

"I do believe Martin is a good guy on the wrong path." What makes you think he's a good guy? All the evidence points to the contrary, both morally and apparently ethically and legally based on this indictment.

FLUX-YOU 11y ago

>Like Morgan on the Walking Dead. I do believe Martin is a good guy on the wrong path. Not sure how you can defend that with this floating around. I’m definitely the real fucking deal. This is not a fucking act. I threatened that fucking guy and his fucking kids because he fucking took $3 million from me and he ended up paying me back. He called my bluff. He said, “You’re not fucking going to go after me.” [I said] “Yes I motherfucking will.” I had two guys parked outside of his house for six months watching his every fucking move. I can get down. I don’t think RZA knows that. I think he thinks I’m some powder puff white guy CEO that’s got too much money. No. No, no, no. http://mic.com/articles/125657/turing-ceo-martin-shkreli-wanted-to-make-former-colleague-and-family-homeless http://mic.com/articles/125657/turing-ceo-martin-shkreli-wan... http://hiphopdx.com/interviews/id.2825/title.martin-shkreli-plans-to-bail-out-bobby-shmurda http://hiphopdx.com/interviews/id.2825/title.martin-shkreli-... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10750928 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10750928

Disruptive_Dave 11y ago
I don't know, I take that as a nerdy white dude who desperately seeks attention trying to impress the hip hop heads out there (that kind of talk is extremely common in the rap game).
- foobarqux 11y ago
  I don't know whether he meant that particular statement but if you watch his stream for a while it becomes clear that he is a delusional sociopath.
  - pdeuchler 11y ago
    or, you know, an insulated, spoiled kid. but that would require empathy
    - foobarqux 11y ago
      He grew up poor.

ascendantlogic 11y ago

While you are correct that hoping he gets beat up in jail isn't right, that does not suddenly mean he's some sort of martyr. We are accountable for our actions and his actions were to buy up drugs that people depend on and then gouge the shit out of them because they have few/no other options. No matter what way you slice it he is not a "good guy".

Grantarvey 11y ago

This is so important. I also believe that this is the central conflict between the disenfranchised and the entitled. Yes, we despise evil, but we do nothing but help create it by turning on those we perceive as bad people the second we're given the go ahead. "I can do better as a human being with empathy towards someone who is broken; sad and probably doesn't understand why people hate him." If we ever want to stop hatred, if we ever want to stop violence, if we ever want to fundamentally stop the same alienated people who turn to mass violence as their destructive outlets, we have to do it with empathy. This article is great, and I post it every time the gun control argument comes up after every mass shooting that comes up: http://markmanson.net/school-shootings http://markmanson.net/school-shootings Empathy is the only thing that will save us. It might not save us all, but we have to try.

homulilly 11y ago

I agree with you on the jail comments not being appropriate but doing something through proxy doesn't make you less culpable. drone pilots still get ptsd (the ones with a conscience at least). Shkreli isn't a good guy on the wrong path, he's an actual psychopath and while I honestly don't think any non-violent criminals "deserve" the hell that is US prison, if it keeps him from exploiting and harming more people it's a net gain for society and that's what's important.

vezzy-fnord 11y ago
it's a net gain for society and that's what's important https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_monster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_monster (Assumes cardinal utility, but it still works.)
- homulilly 11y ago
  Not talking about utilitarianism, I'm talking about social stability.
  - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
    I'm not sure how incarcerating people deemed to prove a "net social loss" by some nebulous criteria promotes social stability. Hell, if we're going to be this loose, why not just kill them so no resources are spent for prisoner care?
  - RIMR 11y ago
    Have you tried some self-awareness? That might help you understand the point being made.

justinator 11y ago

> if you can't see the damage you're doing you can't feel > guilty about it. According to this piece, they feel guilty about it, Former Drone Pilots Denounce 'Morally Outrageous’ Program | NBC News https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ1BC0g_PbQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ1BC0g_PbQ

baq 11y ago

there are people that are good, but either mislead or on the wrong path of some sort. in this case, the person lacks certain part of human-ness called empathy, which you call out; that's a clinical condition called sociopathy. you may notice the irony of invoking empathy on someone who doesn't have it and likely doesn't understand it, having never felt it. high functioning sociopaths can be a very serious danger to any society they're in and you have a great example here.

stephenboyd 11y ago

He doesn't understand why people hate him because he can't step down from his ego trip enough to honestly consider the consequences of his actions. Of all the maligned people in the news deserving of sympathy, an unrepentant Wall Street CEO gloating about profiting by unconscionable means shouldn't rise to consideration. The reason there's so much antipathy lately toward white-collar criminals is backlash against judges and prosecutors being sympathetic and lenient toward their fellow clean-cut professionals. That antipathy has only manifested in angry protests and op-eds by the powerless, not the prosecutorial and judicial decisions that Shkreli is in the hands of now. You could say we're all good guys on some kind of path. The typical third-world warlord is 'just being "successful" as it was always defined to him.' Everyone should get society's best attempt at impartial justice and a compassionate, non-violent, and restorative treatment. But poor folks like Eric Garner are the ones who've been lacking this justice. Shkreli will probably get probation, a fine, and some community service like the handful of executives offered up after the last financial crisis.

wellpast 11y ago

Anyone who doesn't periodically reflect on the consequences of their actions is a bad person. Especially in a world in which our actions are increasingly being done "through proxy".

grandalf 11y ago

I don't think anyone is comparing the moral code of this guy compared with the moral code of the people who are outraged about him. Like most businesspeople he probably adopts the ethos of getting away with what he can within the law, and possibly bending the law where he can get away with it. Google's offshore profit laundering system is an example of a similar approach. I think it's a mistake to believe this guy is all that different from average in his moral behavior. Most of us never get the opportunity to price pharmaceuticals, but chances are most business owners don't simply give away the product to those who want it. Differentiating between customers wanting and needing a product is a slippery slope.

Lawtonfogle 11y ago

>I do believe Martin is a good guy on the wrong path. In the 'even the worst guy in the world is a good guy once you look past what ever issues result in them being evil' way? >He's just being "successful" as it was always defined to him. There are SO many ways I could run with this. Honestly, I think one could try to make the argument that there are no evil people, just broken ones. Is that what you are trying to say? If not, I find it hard to justify this guy as a good guy otherwise.

pessimizer 11y ago

>My first reaction to his arrest was joy and then I saw comments about him getting "beat up in jail" to put it lightly. >People who say those kinds of things are no better than him. Possibly worse. If wishing bad things would happen to someone who has done bad things and actually raising the price of AIDS drugs fiftyfold to get rich are anywhere near each other in your moral calculus, I'm terrified of your moral calculus (especially that it may be common.)

logfromblammo 11y ago
The way I imagine it, rather than getting beaten up, the guy is simply held down and cut once with a razor. The other inmates take turns spitting into his wound and saying, "I wish I could afford the medications that keep my HIV under control. And now you do, too." But I just imagine that. It's not like I would ever attempt to actually set up such a thing. Or I imagine that he goes in, and most everyone is kept segregated under extremely high security, with leg shackles and spit masks. He is put into a cell, and his cell mate has a horribly scarred face, but a bright, friendly grin, insomuch as the scars allow it. That night, he wakes up, unable to move, as the razor blade digs into his face. "I used to have that pretty face. Why should you get to keep it?" The next morning, his cell mate is taken away to solitary. A few weeks later, after his wounds heal, he gets a new cell mate. Lo, it's Martin Shkreli! So he flashes a bright, friendly grin as he thinks about his hidden razor blade. Rod Serling narrates us out, talking about the prison where all the other prisoners are copies of you. We need to imagine prison as a terrible place, where bad people get punished as they rightly deserve, because we need to believe that putting people inside actually somehow serves justice in a useful way. He won't get beat up in jail because he deserves it, but because he will find no one inside willing to watch his back, and the other inmates will attempt to extort some of that pharma-CEO cash out of him while he is within their reach.
- canicode 11y ago
  I felt sick reading that, I think you need to get yourself checked out.
  - 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]