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Except that's wrong. If you want to get hired with a job title of engineer, you at least have to take the FE exam. That is unless you're a webdev, in which ca

Except that's wrong. If you want to get hired with a job title of engineer, you at least have to take the FE exam. That is unless you're a webdev, in which case you can call yourself head fruitloop and it would still be acceptable, apparently

vonmoltke 11y ago
That is absolutely false. I graduated with a BSEE and worked as an electrical engineer for over four years without ever attempting the FE. Nobody I knew, regardless of discipline, who graduated in the mid-90s or later has done so either. An FE is required in order to be hired at a firm providing engineering services "to the public", such as a civil engineering or architecture practice. It is not required, or in some cases even valued, at product companies.
mhurron 11y ago
> If you want to get hired with a job title of engineer At the very least, not in the US you don't. /has title inflated job title of Engineer, not a web developer.
jnbiche 11y ago
What is it with software developers who take such offense at the use of the word "engineer"? Clearly, you're not a "real" engineer, or you'd know that your statement about the use of the word "engineer" in titles was wrong in the US (and Canada doesn't use the FE exam). I've never met a engineer who gave a crap what my title was, software developer or software engineer. Which isn't a surprise, since we pose no threat to the jobs of "real" engineers. Not sure why the word is so threatening to some software developers. Do railroad engineers have to put up with this?
- cjrjdjcnd 11y ago
  Actually I'm a mechanical engineer. Webdevs calling themselves engineers is an insult to the amount of work and effort that I've put in to get where I am now. It's like medical technician calling themselves a doctor because they took a training prep course.
  - khedoros 11y ago
    A technician could call themselves a "doctor", but they couldn't call themselves a "Medical Doctor". A developer can call themselves an "engineer", but they cannot call themselves a "Professional Engineer". If I started putting "PE" after my name, I'd expect the NCEES to come after me. No one but you can decide what you take as an insult, of course, but choosing industry-standard (and legally uncontrolled) terminology like "software engineer" to take offense at seems like a losing battle.
  - kajecounterhack 11y ago
    Webdevs calling themselves engineers is an insult to the amount of work and effort that I've put in to get where I am now 1. "web dev" is nebulous. At what part of the stack does it cease to be "web dev?" 2. Definition of engineer: "An engineer is a practitioner of engineering, concerned with applying scientific knowledge, mathematics, and ingenuity to develop solutions for technical, societal and commercial problems." Your statements misunderstand the definition of an engineer and devalue the accomplishments of people who apply math, science, and ingenuity to [animate things on websites] [make a website load in requisite time] [bend the constraints set by the browser to achieve certain objectives] [...insert other software engineering tasks]. 3. It sounds to me that you feel hurt over credentials. What you are projecting: "I worked hard for this thing and I perceive that you are devaluing it." My response is, credentials are different in software engineering, sorry. And nobody is devaluing your mechanical engineering degree here; if it's something in your field that is valuable, that's good for you. But mechanical engineering isn't software engineering, and you can't say x isn't engineering, you have to understand what the accepted definition is.
amyjess 11y ago
Not true. I once worked at a company (2007-2010) where almost every non-manager had "engineer" in their job title. Aside from Software Engineers, our QA staff were Test Engineers, our customer support people were Customer Support Engineers, our tech writer was the Technical Documentation Engineer (that was a late addition: his predecessor was simply a Sr. Technical Writer), our pentesters were Vulnerability Research Engineers, our sysadmin was the IT Systems Engineer, and probably a few more I can't remember. The only exceptions were the tech leads in development, QA, and support, who all had the title Technical Leader (except one guy who was a Software Lead for reasons I don't know). There was also a push for non-technical employees to all be managers, even if they didn't manage anyone. Our accountant was the Accounting Manager, person responsible for training sessions was the Technical Training Manager, the people who wrote our marketing collateral were the Marketing Communications Manager and the Sr. Manager of Technical Marketing, etc. Basically, everybody below the director level was either an engineer, a manager, or a technical leader.
prodigal_erik 11y ago
If you want software engineering to be certified by a test, you should be advocating a relevant test. My career predates the web by years and yet I've never needed to know the shear strength of copper or the resonant frequency of an RC circuit to make a server work.

vonmoltke 11y ago

That is absolutely false. I graduated with a BSEE and worked as an electrical engineer for over four years without ever attempting the FE. Nobody I knew, regardless of discipline, who graduated in the mid-90s or later has done so either. An FE is required in order to be hired at a firm providing engineering services "to the public", such as a civil engineering or architecture practice. It is not required, or in some cases even valued, at product companies.

mhurron 11y ago

> If you want to get hired with a job title of engineer At the very least, not in the US you don't. /has title inflated job title of Engineer, not a web developer.

jnbiche 11y ago

What is it with software developers who take such offense at the use of the word "engineer"? Clearly, you're not a "real" engineer, or you'd know that your statement about the use of the word "engineer" in titles was wrong in the US (and Canada doesn't use the FE exam). I've never met a engineer who gave a crap what my title was, software developer or software engineer. Which isn't a surprise, since we pose no threat to the jobs of "real" engineers. Not sure why the word is so threatening to some software developers. Do railroad engineers have to put up with this?

cjrjdjcnd 11y ago
Actually I'm a mechanical engineer. Webdevs calling themselves engineers is an insult to the amount of work and effort that I've put in to get where I am now. It's like medical technician calling themselves a doctor because they took a training prep course.
- khedoros 11y ago
  A technician could call themselves a "doctor", but they couldn't call themselves a "Medical Doctor". A developer can call themselves an "engineer", but they cannot call themselves a "Professional Engineer". If I started putting "PE" after my name, I'd expect the NCEES to come after me. No one but you can decide what you take as an insult, of course, but choosing industry-standard (and legally uncontrolled) terminology like "software engineer" to take offense at seems like a losing battle.
- kajecounterhack 11y ago
  Webdevs calling themselves engineers is an insult to the amount of work and effort that I've put in to get where I am now 1. "web dev" is nebulous. At what part of the stack does it cease to be "web dev?" 2. Definition of engineer: "An engineer is a practitioner of engineering, concerned with applying scientific knowledge, mathematics, and ingenuity to develop solutions for technical, societal and commercial problems." Your statements misunderstand the definition of an engineer and devalue the accomplishments of people who apply math, science, and ingenuity to [animate things on websites] [make a website load in requisite time] [bend the constraints set by the browser to achieve certain objectives] [...insert other software engineering tasks]. 3. It sounds to me that you feel hurt over credentials. What you are projecting: "I worked hard for this thing and I perceive that you are devaluing it." My response is, credentials are different in software engineering, sorry. And nobody is devaluing your mechanical engineering degree here; if it's something in your field that is valuable, that's good for you. But mechanical engineering isn't software engineering, and you can't say x isn't engineering, you have to understand what the accepted definition is.

amyjess 11y ago

Not true. I once worked at a company (2007-2010) where almost every non-manager had "engineer" in their job title. Aside from Software Engineers, our QA staff were Test Engineers, our customer support people were Customer Support Engineers, our tech writer was the Technical Documentation Engineer (that was a late addition: his predecessor was simply a Sr. Technical Writer), our pentesters were Vulnerability Research Engineers, our sysadmin was the IT Systems Engineer, and probably a few more I can't remember. The only exceptions were the tech leads in development, QA, and support, who all had the title Technical Leader (except one guy who was a Software Lead for reasons I don't know). There was also a push for non-technical employees to all be managers, even if they didn't manage anyone. Our accountant was the Accounting Manager, person responsible for training sessions was the Technical Training Manager, the people who wrote our marketing collateral were the Marketing Communications Manager and the Sr. Manager of Technical Marketing, etc. Basically, everybody below the director level was either an engineer, a manager, or a technical leader.

prodigal_erik 11y ago

If you want software engineering to be certified by a test, you should be advocating a relevant test. My career predates the web by years and yet I've never needed to know the shear strength of copper or the resonant frequency of an RC circuit to make a server work.