5 ms·

Mike Rowe to Bernie Sanders: Stop Telling Everyone College Is the Only Thing

15 points by aaronchall 11y ago

setra 11y ago
I quote: Bernie Sanders tweets, “At the end of the day, providing a path to go to college is a helluva lot cheaper than putting people on a path to jail.” I wonder sometimes, if the best way to question the increasingly dangerous idea that a college education is the best path for the most people, is to stop fighting the sentiment directly, and simply shine a light on the knuckleheads who continue to perpetuate this nonsense. This latest tweet from Bernie Sanders is a prime example. In less than 140 characters, he’s managed to imply that a path to prison is the most likely alternative to a path to college. Pardon my acronym, but...WTF!?... It’s a cautionary tale as predictable as it is false. But now, as people are slowly starting to understand the obscenity of 1.3 trillion dollars in student loans, along with the abundance of opportunity for those with the proper training, it seems the proponents of “college for all” need something even more frightening than the prospect of a career in the trades to frighten the next class into signing on the dotted line. According to Senator Sanders, that “something,” is a path to jail. I try not to be political on this page, because the truth is, arrogance and elitism are alive and well in every corner of every party—especially with respect to this topic. But I have to admit, this is the first time I’ve seen an elected official support the hyper-inflated cost of a diploma by juxtaposing it with the hyper-inflated cost of incarceration. Honestly, I’m not sure what to make of it.
- aaronchall 11y ago
  related: Le Cordon Bleau's US cooking schools are closing down: The company cited "the impact of the federal government's new regulations on career colleges" for its decision, referring to "the Obama administration's gainful employment rule, which cuts off federal financial aid to schools where graduates borrow money at high rates to pay for school but earn little after graduation." http://www.eater.com/2015/12/17/10401492/le-cordon-bleu-cooking-school-america-closing http://www.eater.com/2015/12/17/10401492/le-cordon-bleu-cook... Though I would expect trade schools to continue flourishing...
- ArkyBeagle 11y ago
  It's just one darned thing after another, innit? Fundamental attribution error for all! The FAE is like a drug. Our entire approach to prison has been like this since the Quakers invented it. Someone once pointed out to me that our University system was "hijacked" by, of all people, the Unitarians in the early 19th century ( when Harvard ousted the Congregationalists/Puritans/Calvinists and replaced them largely with Unitarians ). These are long-term , nearly sectarian conflicts. http://www.thenewamerican.com/reviews/opinion/item/10759-how-harvard-went-from-calvinism-to-unitarianism http://www.thenewamerican.com/reviews/opinion/item/10759-how... "Unitarianism is not a revealed religion. It is a social movement based on the notion that man is basically good and morally perfectible, and that all that is needed to achieve this moral and social utopia is a good secular education. And that is why the Unitarians became the major force in the public school movement." Now, perhaps I am taking my dose of FAE here :), but that sure looks like the shape things are in. I'm also quite aware it's not clear where the Quakers fit in; but the basic initial design for prison did initiate with them - for humanitarian reasons.
- dikdik 11y ago
  I took the comment differnetly. If we as a society are going to spend 30k+ a year on an individual, wouldn't it be better for that to be spent on educating a citizen than imprisoning them (especially for things like marijuana)? One is an investment, one is a money pit.
rkho 11y ago
I was the first generation of my family to attend college. Throughout high school (graduated high school in 2006), the idea that college was the answer to everything was everywhere. Go to college, get a degree, you'll end up with a job. After seven years of paying high college tuition for a sub par education, I graduated in 2012 with a BA degree that was not in any demand, provided no real skills, and spent several years during and after college working in dead end retail/customer service jobs. I ended up teaching myself how to code and landed a very well paying career as an engineer with a huge passion for what I'm doing. Here are the takeaways I have from having gone down this route: + Don't go to college just to go to college. If you don't know why you're going, don't go. + If you do go to college, don't expect your major of choice to land you a job. If you know what you want to do in life, you should probably just go and do it on your own. College is not synonymous with landing a career. + If you go to college and don't end up landing a job, more college is not the answer. A master's/graduate program is not the answer.
- aaronchall 11y ago
  I would adopt some nuance regarding your third point: If you're successful at college, but are unemployable because of your degree, then if you get a graduate degree that is in demand, you have turned a negative into a positive. But you still have to demonstrate employability to get hired.
  - rkho 11y ago
    Right, but I'm observing a lot of sentiment around "grad school is the answer" as what comes right after "college is the answer" has proven wrong for people without a clear goal. It's just more debt piling up.
- tryitnow 11y ago
  I have no idea why people still make this mistake. Clearly, way too many "adults" are telling high school kids that "college is the answer!" without providing more detail. It's more like getting a profession is the answer. That can mean going to college (necessary for things like medicine, law, accounting), going to vo tech school, apprenticing (e.g. electricians, carpenters) or teaching yourself and gaining experience (e.g. coding). The last route is a little problematic because there's no real barrier to entry (other than intelligence). We're in the midst of a demand boom for developers now, but eventually companies will start recouping their investments in code and start laying off developers or cutting pay simply because there's so many bright people who figured they can just teach themselves code. Of course, if you really enjoy and are good at software engineering then you're going to have a career regardless. But the people who are doing it just because it's what pays well now will be washed out in the next recession.
chrisbennet 11y ago
"Les Swanson from Wisconsin cleaned septic tanks. I asked him one day-we were literally standing up to our nipples in the most indescribable bouillabaisse-"Les, what'd you do before this?" It's like 110 degrees, the sweat is running off his face, and he looks and me and he says-I swear-"I was a guidance counselor." He was a psychologist. I said, "Why'd you leave that?" And without missing a beat he said, "I got tired of dealing with other people's shit."

15 points by aaronchall 11y ago

setra 11y ago

I quote: Bernie Sanders tweets, “At the end of the day, providing a path to go to college is a helluva lot cheaper than putting people on a path to jail.” I wonder sometimes, if the best way to question the increasingly dangerous idea that a college education is the best path for the most people, is to stop fighting the sentiment directly, and simply shine a light on the knuckleheads who continue to perpetuate this nonsense. This latest tweet from Bernie Sanders is a prime example. In less than 140 characters, he’s managed to imply that a path to prison is the most likely alternative to a path to college. Pardon my acronym, but...WTF!?... It’s a cautionary tale as predictable as it is false. But now, as people are slowly starting to understand the obscenity of 1.3 trillion dollars in student loans, along with the abundance of opportunity for those with the proper training, it seems the proponents of “college for all” need something even more frightening than the prospect of a career in the trades to frighten the next class into signing on the dotted line. According to Senator Sanders, that “something,” is a path to jail. I try not to be political on this page, because the truth is, arrogance and elitism are alive and well in every corner of every party—especially with respect to this topic. But I have to admit, this is the first time I’ve seen an elected official support the hyper-inflated cost of a diploma by juxtaposing it with the hyper-inflated cost of incarceration. Honestly, I’m not sure what to make of it.

aaronchall 11y ago
related: Le Cordon Bleau's US cooking schools are closing down: The company cited "the impact of the federal government's new regulations on career colleges" for its decision, referring to "the Obama administration's gainful employment rule, which cuts off federal financial aid to schools where graduates borrow money at high rates to pay for school but earn little after graduation." http://www.eater.com/2015/12/17/10401492/le-cordon-bleu-cooking-school-america-closing http://www.eater.com/2015/12/17/10401492/le-cordon-bleu-cook... Though I would expect trade schools to continue flourishing...
ArkyBeagle 11y ago
It's just one darned thing after another, innit? Fundamental attribution error for all! The FAE is like a drug. Our entire approach to prison has been like this since the Quakers invented it. Someone once pointed out to me that our University system was "hijacked" by, of all people, the Unitarians in the early 19th century ( when Harvard ousted the Congregationalists/Puritans/Calvinists and replaced them largely with Unitarians ). These are long-term , nearly sectarian conflicts. http://www.thenewamerican.com/reviews/opinion/item/10759-how-harvard-went-from-calvinism-to-unitarianism http://www.thenewamerican.com/reviews/opinion/item/10759-how... "Unitarianism is not a revealed religion. It is a social movement based on the notion that man is basically good and morally perfectible, and that all that is needed to achieve this moral and social utopia is a good secular education. And that is why the Unitarians became the major force in the public school movement." Now, perhaps I am taking my dose of FAE here :), but that sure looks like the shape things are in. I'm also quite aware it's not clear where the Quakers fit in; but the basic initial design for prison did initiate with them - for humanitarian reasons.
dikdik 11y ago
I took the comment differnetly. If we as a society are going to spend 30k+ a year on an individual, wouldn't it be better for that to be spent on educating a citizen than imprisoning them (especially for things like marijuana)? One is an investment, one is a money pit.

rkho 11y ago

I was the first generation of my family to attend college. Throughout high school (graduated high school in 2006), the idea that college was the answer to everything was everywhere. Go to college, get a degree, you'll end up with a job. After seven years of paying high college tuition for a sub par education, I graduated in 2012 with a BA degree that was not in any demand, provided no real skills, and spent several years during and after college working in dead end retail/customer service jobs. I ended up teaching myself how to code and landed a very well paying career as an engineer with a huge passion for what I'm doing. Here are the takeaways I have from having gone down this route: + Don't go to college just to go to college. If you don't know why you're going, don't go. + If you do go to college, don't expect your major of choice to land you a job. If you know what you want to do in life, you should probably just go and do it on your own. College is not synonymous with landing a career. + If you go to college and don't end up landing a job, more college is not the answer. A master's/graduate program is not the answer.

aaronchall 11y ago
I would adopt some nuance regarding your third point: If you're successful at college, but are unemployable because of your degree, then if you get a graduate degree that is in demand, you have turned a negative into a positive. But you still have to demonstrate employability to get hired.
- rkho 11y ago
  Right, but I'm observing a lot of sentiment around "grad school is the answer" as what comes right after "college is the answer" has proven wrong for people without a clear goal. It's just more debt piling up.
tryitnow 11y ago
I have no idea why people still make this mistake. Clearly, way too many "adults" are telling high school kids that "college is the answer!" without providing more detail. It's more like getting a profession is the answer. That can mean going to college (necessary for things like medicine, law, accounting), going to vo tech school, apprenticing (e.g. electricians, carpenters) or teaching yourself and gaining experience (e.g. coding). The last route is a little problematic because there's no real barrier to entry (other than intelligence). We're in the midst of a demand boom for developers now, but eventually companies will start recouping their investments in code and start laying off developers or cutting pay simply because there's so many bright people who figured they can just teach themselves code. Of course, if you really enjoy and are good at software engineering then you're going to have a career regardless. But the people who are doing it just because it's what pays well now will be washed out in the next recession.

chrisbennet 11y ago

"Les Swanson from Wisconsin cleaned septic tanks. I asked him one day-we were literally standing up to our nipples in the most indescribable bouillabaisse-"Les, what'd you do before this?" It's like 110 degrees, the sweat is running off his face, and he looks and me and he says-I swear-"I was a guidance counselor." He was a psychologist. I said, "Why'd you leave that?" And without missing a beat he said, "I got tired of dealing with other people's shit."