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Honestly the MBA has always mostly been an advanced degree for people who didn't get an advanced degree in a real subject. Lets people tick the 'grad school' bo

Honestly the MBA has always mostly been an advanced degree for people who didn't get an advanced degree in a real subject. Lets people tick the 'grad school' box. The real world value has always been quite questionable and yes I'd agree here that in tech it's mostly useless, if not actually even a disadvantage. For what's it's worth nearly all the excellent executives I've met over the years didn't have an MBA and nearly all the worst ones did...

jevgeni 11y ago
Well, I have had the opposite experience, but then again I'm not in tech. Thing is, the useless MBA image comes from the indiscriminate and formalistic practices of HR recruiters, who would equate an "MBA" with "value". So the incentives have changed from "I want to bring my company forward" to "I want a cushy job with little actual work". And it is true, that traditional business education has now suffered from this. What I ask myself, if CS will be immune to this. Judging that Fizz Buzz is still a thing, I'd say no.
- x1024 11y ago
  So you're saying that "No true MBA graduate is useless".
  - jevgeni 11y ago
    Why are people on HN so obsessed with trying to find argument fallacies in comments? No, I am not saying that. The words "true MBA" have the same amount of content to them as "a true kitchen sink": zero. I say that people buy education for different reasons. Some get an MBA because they want to flash their CVs, have a cushy job, and avoid the strains of being original. Others get an MBA because they need the skills, the language, the professional network, and the confidence, that such degrees (at least from good universities) bring for a specific goal they want to accomplish, be that within an already established business or not. Saying that those kind of mind sets (or only one of those mind sets) is strictly particular to a group of people, which made a certain academic choice is wrong. In my professional experience, for example, I've met a lot more engineers who were absolutely useless from a business perspective, than I've met useless MBAs. Of course, this is because I've met way more engineers than MBAs.
    - pc86 11y ago
      > Why are people on HN so obsessed with trying to find argument fallacies in comments? Because they usually don't understand the fallacies themselves, let alone the argument someone else is making.
    - beachstartup 11y ago
      > Why are people on HN so obsessed with trying to find argument fallacies in comments? it's just what happens when you get a bunch of intelligent pedants in a 'room' together.
    - x1024 11y ago
      Well, when you quantify your opinion like that, there's not much of an opinion left to even debate. "Different people get an education for different reasons" is a nice statement, and I would even agree that it's true. But nothing follows from that. It's not a statement that one can draw conclusions from. In your original statement you're saying "MBAs are useless now, but it's because of HR, and it sucks that MBAs are useless but it didn't always use to be like that". Now you're saying "no, they aren't useless, in fact they're better than engineers". Oh, how easy it is to claim a strong point when you're unconstrained by the truth.
      - jevgeni 11y ago
        I haven't claimed a strong point. Neither have I said anything like what you are implying I've said. I've only tried to clarify my previous comments at which I seem to have failed.
Fede_V 11y ago
My experience is that the entire value of an MBA is in the network of people you meet through business school. I asked a friend who had a technical degree from an excellent university, and later got an MBA what useful skills he learned, and he flat out said that he only got it for signaling purposes. As far as new ideas/notions, it was basically absolutely nothing. A quick glance at any publication on 'managerial studies' will confirm the total vacuity of the field. The average published article is a 'just so' story backed up by a dramatically statistically underpowered study. Managerial science makes social psychology look like quantum physics.
noer 11y ago
> For what's it's worth nearly all the excellent executives I've met over the years didn't have an MBA and nearly all the worst ones did... I sort of draw a comparison between that and something I heard the director of a local accelerator say once: "We look for founders who are open to taking advice from mentors, but at the same time, don't take everything everyone says to them as gospel." I think there's something similar to an MBA program. The people who do best are the ones who are able to take what they've learned and run with it, rather than use exactly what was taught in school as playbook for every business.
ryandrake 11y ago
Unless you're considering the opportunity cost of doing an MBA vs. learning a new technical skill for 2 years, I'm not sure how extra education could ever be a disadvantage. Sure, in tech (specifically in Silicon Valley), the value of the degree is pretty much ignored. I'd probably get the same opportunities out here with or without mine on my resume. I can't see it ever being a detriment though. Are you telling me that there are companies who will interview me, be all set to send me an offer, then find out I have an MBA and say "Oops, no-hire! Looks like you're a moron!"
puranjay 11y ago
I reckon I'm a prime candidate for an MBA because of the aforementioned factors. I don't have an advanced degree in a 'hard' field. Even though I run a business - and a growing one at that - there is some insecurity that comes from not having an advanced degree checkbox against my name, especially since I come from a culture that values education highly.

jevgeni 11y ago

Well, I have had the opposite experience, but then again I'm not in tech. Thing is, the useless MBA image comes from the indiscriminate and formalistic practices of HR recruiters, who would equate an "MBA" with "value". So the incentives have changed from "I want to bring my company forward" to "I want a cushy job with little actual work". And it is true, that traditional business education has now suffered from this. What I ask myself, if CS will be immune to this. Judging that Fizz Buzz is still a thing, I'd say no.

x1024 11y ago
So you're saying that "No true MBA graduate is useless".
- jevgeni 11y ago
  Why are people on HN so obsessed with trying to find argument fallacies in comments? No, I am not saying that. The words "true MBA" have the same amount of content to them as "a true kitchen sink": zero. I say that people buy education for different reasons. Some get an MBA because they want to flash their CVs, have a cushy job, and avoid the strains of being original. Others get an MBA because they need the skills, the language, the professional network, and the confidence, that such degrees (at least from good universities) bring for a specific goal they want to accomplish, be that within an already established business or not. Saying that those kind of mind sets (or only one of those mind sets) is strictly particular to a group of people, which made a certain academic choice is wrong. In my professional experience, for example, I've met a lot more engineers who were absolutely useless from a business perspective, than I've met useless MBAs. Of course, this is because I've met way more engineers than MBAs.
  - pc86 11y ago
    > Why are people on HN so obsessed with trying to find argument fallacies in comments? Because they usually don't understand the fallacies themselves, let alone the argument someone else is making.
  - beachstartup 11y ago
    > Why are people on HN so obsessed with trying to find argument fallacies in comments? it's just what happens when you get a bunch of intelligent pedants in a 'room' together.
  - x1024 11y ago
    Well, when you quantify your opinion like that, there's not much of an opinion left to even debate. "Different people get an education for different reasons" is a nice statement, and I would even agree that it's true. But nothing follows from that. It's not a statement that one can draw conclusions from. In your original statement you're saying "MBAs are useless now, but it's because of HR, and it sucks that MBAs are useless but it didn't always use to be like that". Now you're saying "no, they aren't useless, in fact they're better than engineers". Oh, how easy it is to claim a strong point when you're unconstrained by the truth.
    - jevgeni 11y ago
      I haven't claimed a strong point. Neither have I said anything like what you are implying I've said. I've only tried to clarify my previous comments at which I seem to have failed.

Fede_V 11y ago

My experience is that the entire value of an MBA is in the network of people you meet through business school. I asked a friend who had a technical degree from an excellent university, and later got an MBA what useful skills he learned, and he flat out said that he only got it for signaling purposes. As far as new ideas/notions, it was basically absolutely nothing. A quick glance at any publication on 'managerial studies' will confirm the total vacuity of the field. The average published article is a 'just so' story backed up by a dramatically statistically underpowered study. Managerial science makes social psychology look like quantum physics.

noer 11y ago

> For what's it's worth nearly all the excellent executives I've met over the years didn't have an MBA and nearly all the worst ones did... I sort of draw a comparison between that and something I heard the director of a local accelerator say once: "We look for founders who are open to taking advice from mentors, but at the same time, don't take everything everyone says to them as gospel." I think there's something similar to an MBA program. The people who do best are the ones who are able to take what they've learned and run with it, rather than use exactly what was taught in school as playbook for every business.

ryandrake 11y ago

Unless you're considering the opportunity cost of doing an MBA vs. learning a new technical skill for 2 years, I'm not sure how extra education could ever be a disadvantage. Sure, in tech (specifically in Silicon Valley), the value of the degree is pretty much ignored. I'd probably get the same opportunities out here with or without mine on my resume. I can't see it ever being a detriment though. Are you telling me that there are companies who will interview me, be all set to send me an offer, then find out I have an MBA and say "Oops, no-hire! Looks like you're a moron!"

puranjay 11y ago

I reckon I'm a prime candidate for an MBA because of the aforementioned factors. I don't have an advanced degree in a 'hard' field. Even though I run a business - and a growing one at that - there is some insecurity that comes from not having an advanced degree checkbox against my name, especially since I come from a culture that values education highly.