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> In the US, labor protections have been continuously eroded since at least the 80s, as the US Republican party has worked tirelessly (and overtly) to promote c

> In the US, labor protections have been continuously eroded since at least the 80s, as the US Republican party has worked tirelessly (and overtly) to promote corporate interests at the expense of workers, and the Democratic party has often joined them without advertising it (for both parties, that’s where the money is). It's really how it has to be. Collective bargaining ultimately stifles innovation. It's really hard to come up with new business concepts if there's this giant body of law, regulation, and tradition that governs every way someone can contribute to an economic venture. I personally would hate for web development to become a unionized field, ultimately that would reduce my options rather than increase them. Every job becomes pretty much the same. Given a choice between US-style employment and European-style, I'd pick US. There is a lot I can do to alter the terms of my employment. I can contract, start my own firm that hires only me, I can accept full-employment and negotiate perks. No relationship is unalterable and sacrosanct. To put it succinctly, I prefer to retain my bargaining ability rather than delegate it to someone else. Obviously I have a very privileged position in society and the less-privileged would probably choose more stable unionized jobs. But I wasn't born rich. I didn't graduate college. My options really do come from the society I live in rather than the circumstances of my birth within that society. The problem is that it's all or nothing, and once you start going in one direction, it's really hard to turn the ship around. I think ultimately Anglo-style fungibility of labor will, over time, find market solutions to the problems of the lower class, and not have to resort to political solutions except to retain worker mobility. Freedom of information makes it really hard for abusive practices to stay in the shadows, and also allows the social norm to shift over time. It offers most of the advantages of collective bargaining without the stifling political intrusion. So we get a pendulum effect in which things get worse in one direction, but public attention forces things to get right again, and everybody benefits from the norm shift.

Sanddancer 11y ago
The way society's going, we're heading towards nothing. Even in the tech industry, if you're not a coder, you're going to be dealing with a completely different sort of life. Support people, entry level IT people, etc are brought in as contractors, which means that the protections that you get as a programmer are things they don't have. As your company makes more and more money, they are stuck with a barely livable wage, because too many CEOs don't want to think about those jobs that "anyone" can do. This stratification is getting worse, and something really does need to change.
- tracker1 11y ago
  I feel that part of the problem is the ever-expanding protections provided to large incumbents via IP law and other overly-restrictive legal protections. It flies in the face of being able to compete, or create new upstart competitors. I enjoy being skilled as a software developer, but it's still not relatively as good as it was in the mid-late 70's accounting for inflation. The problem is we have a lot of pro-business combined with protectionism that inhibits the pro-competition that's meant to offset monopolistic tracks.
- vinceguidry 11y ago
  > Even in the tech industry, if you're not a coder, you're going to be dealing with a completely different sort of life. My company's IT personnel are all full-time employees, with decent salaries and medical coverage. I'm actually underpaid relative to my peers, but I've managed to negotiate certain perks that are pretty important to me. But social inequality has always existed, you have to compare rungs on the ladder to what those rungs looked like 10-20 years ago. I'd argue that if you look at it that way, life is only getting better and better for people.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
lhopki01 11y ago
I'm not sure where you get your "European-style" ideas from. Anglo-style fungibility of labour hasn't found any solutions before why would it suddenly start? Weekends, pensions, paid sick leave, holidays, healthcare for all are all things that have come out of the union movement. You're not forced to join a union and well paid jobs almost never have unions. Unions are for those that don't have your bargaining position. And there's a difference between "I wasn't born rich" and making it and "I'm born into a deprived circumstances."
- vinceguidry 11y ago
  Like I said, it's all or nothing. Once you turn the ship, the whole economy moves that way. It's not something we should do lightly. The union movement was a response to a particular time frame where the world was rapidly industrializing and the nature of work was very different than it is today. Factories used to lock the doors during the workday so workers couldn't sneak out. That period of time is over. > Unions are for those that don't have your bargaining position. This is not true at all. There are player's unions for each of the major sports. In Hollywood, entrance into your profession's union is a key marker of status and increases your earning potential, so long as you do it right. The medical field has professional organizations that act as unions. There are unions for each of the construction fields as well as a substantial non-unionized sector. Both sectors cater to different parts of the market. In all fields and sectors in which collective bargaining is a thing, innovation is stifled. Professions remain static, decade after decade, the union doing its damndest best to keep the status quo. > And there's a difference between "I wasn't born rich" and making it and "I'm born into a deprived circumstances." I was 1 step away from what they call "poor white trash." My mom's parents struggled a lot, and though my father's father had a stable union job with the railroad, my father was an alcoholic. My mom threw him out when I was around 3 or 4 and we were the very definition of poor. My mom has told me numerous stories of the ugliness of the people and the near-desperation in which we lived most of the time. I don't remember much of it because my mom managed to escape the hell of southern Louisiana by marrying a Marine. Soon after, he got posted to various other parts of the country, and south Louisiana was ancient history. I was born into the so-called 'working poor'. We didn't stay that way. Hell, south Louisiana didn't stay that way, it's a lot different now. It wasn't cushy union jobs that did it, it was the willingness to be mobile and to take advantage of the economic opportunities that being in the most powerful nation of the world afforded us.

Sanddancer 11y ago

The way society's going, we're heading towards nothing. Even in the tech industry, if you're not a coder, you're going to be dealing with a completely different sort of life. Support people, entry level IT people, etc are brought in as contractors, which means that the protections that you get as a programmer are things they don't have. As your company makes more and more money, they are stuck with a barely livable wage, because too many CEOs don't want to think about those jobs that "anyone" can do. This stratification is getting worse, and something really does need to change.

tracker1 11y ago
I feel that part of the problem is the ever-expanding protections provided to large incumbents via IP law and other overly-restrictive legal protections. It flies in the face of being able to compete, or create new upstart competitors. I enjoy being skilled as a software developer, but it's still not relatively as good as it was in the mid-late 70's accounting for inflation. The problem is we have a lot of pro-business combined with protectionism that inhibits the pro-competition that's meant to offset monopolistic tracks.
vinceguidry 11y ago
> Even in the tech industry, if you're not a coder, you're going to be dealing with a completely different sort of life. My company's IT personnel are all full-time employees, with decent salaries and medical coverage. I'm actually underpaid relative to my peers, but I've managed to negotiate certain perks that are pretty important to me. But social inequality has always existed, you have to compare rungs on the ladder to what those rungs looked like 10-20 years ago. I'd argue that if you look at it that way, life is only getting better and better for people.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

lhopki01 11y ago

I'm not sure where you get your "European-style" ideas from. Anglo-style fungibility of labour hasn't found any solutions before why would it suddenly start? Weekends, pensions, paid sick leave, holidays, healthcare for all are all things that have come out of the union movement. You're not forced to join a union and well paid jobs almost never have unions. Unions are for those that don't have your bargaining position. And there's a difference between "I wasn't born rich" and making it and "I'm born into a deprived circumstances."

vinceguidry 11y ago
Like I said, it's all or nothing. Once you turn the ship, the whole economy moves that way. It's not something we should do lightly. The union movement was a response to a particular time frame where the world was rapidly industrializing and the nature of work was very different than it is today. Factories used to lock the doors during the workday so workers couldn't sneak out. That period of time is over. > Unions are for those that don't have your bargaining position. This is not true at all. There are player's unions for each of the major sports. In Hollywood, entrance into your profession's union is a key marker of status and increases your earning potential, so long as you do it right. The medical field has professional organizations that act as unions. There are unions for each of the construction fields as well as a substantial non-unionized sector. Both sectors cater to different parts of the market. In all fields and sectors in which collective bargaining is a thing, innovation is stifled. Professions remain static, decade after decade, the union doing its damndest best to keep the status quo. > And there's a difference between "I wasn't born rich" and making it and "I'm born into a deprived circumstances." I was 1 step away from what they call "poor white trash." My mom's parents struggled a lot, and though my father's father had a stable union job with the railroad, my father was an alcoholic. My mom threw him out when I was around 3 or 4 and we were the very definition of poor. My mom has told me numerous stories of the ugliness of the people and the near-desperation in which we lived most of the time. I don't remember much of it because my mom managed to escape the hell of southern Louisiana by marrying a Marine. Soon after, he got posted to various other parts of the country, and south Louisiana was ancient history. I was born into the so-called 'working poor'. We didn't stay that way. Hell, south Louisiana didn't stay that way, it's a lot different now. It wasn't cushy union jobs that did it, it was the willingness to be mobile and to take advantage of the economic opportunities that being in the most powerful nation of the world afforded us.