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If you go ahead and read the article, you'll realize that it's more about Facebook complaining their business will be more heavily regulated in Brazil than outr

If you go ahead and read the article, you'll realize that it's more about Facebook complaining their business will be more heavily regulated in Brazil than outright censorship.

rbanffy 11y ago
That and that Facebook may have to comply with valid court orders. How outrageous a judge telling what Facebook should do.
- aianus 11y ago
  A judge in a corrupt third-world country can say whatever he wants, I don't think Facebook should blindly be following court orders from overseas.
  - Tomte 11y ago
    "Overseas" in that context would be the US, right? :-) We have exactly that problem with Facebook and other big US companies in Europe (Uber comes to mind): they act in Europe (and do damage here), but hide in the US. Oftentimes not even replying to court orders, because hey, what can a lowly regional court judge from Germany do, right? If you want to play here, comply with our laws. If you don't, then don't be surprised if your business is shut down. I can totally understand the attitude of the Brazilian judge, even if the result is terrible. But suddenly he is paid attention! Chapeau!
    - aianus 11y ago
      Why should a lowly regional judge in Germany (or the US for that matter) be allowed to meddle with a national or global communications network? There must be millions of judges in the world, many of whom are corrupt, power-hungry, or just plain stupid. It would be silly for Facebook, Google, etc. to blindly obey each one of their ramblings. Edit: s/shut down/meddle with/
      - Tomte 11y ago
        We make sure our justice system is not corrupt. You don't get to ignore our laws, just because you conveniently hint to corruption. If you feel our country is too corrupt to make business in, great, stay away. Why should we allow extra-legal, non-elected company managers from abroad to trump our constitutional, legal and parliamentary-approved laws?
        aianus 11y ago
        I'm sure you believe your country's laws are fair, just, constitutional, and parliamentary-approved. However, so do Thai people believe about their laws against insulting their King. Do you think Facebook should be in the business of censoring posts insulting the Thai King just because some judge there gives them a court order? I maintain that Facebook should, in general, ignore foreign court orders and just do what's right. At the risk, of course, of being blocked entirely in that country.
        Tomte 11y ago
        If they want to do business there, sure. The alternative stands: get out of the country. You maintain that Facebook should, in general, follow your legal system. Do you believe that America and only America is "fair, just, constitutional, and parliamentary-approved"? That's basically American exceptionalism at its best.
        msh 11y ago
        So if the US wants info on users of a German app who have no servers or offices in the US it should just give it to them? Even if the offense they are suspected of is not illegal in Germany? My point is that Brazil should follow legal procedures and have a American judge issue a supena. That's what a MLAT is for.
        germanier 11y ago
        I'm sure the Brazilian judge followed Brazilian legal procedures. That's the entire point of being a Brazilian judge. There might be other means to achieve a goal but that doesn't mean what happened isn't legal. In your example, if that German app was targeted to US users (e.g. by localization and marketing) then yes, they should follow US laws. That's a test German courts use to determine whether they have jurisdiction in the digital world and I think that's fair and should be applied in the other direction as well. If they don't want to or can't (e.g. by contractual obligations or German law) they shouldn't act surprised if the US doesn't allow US business to trade with them.
  - rbanffy 11y ago
    The same way that, when I open an office in the US I must live with a series of arbitrary laws I may not agree with (or that horrify me), when you open an office in a corrupt third-world country, you are supposed to obey the law or suffer the consequences.

If you go ahead and read the article, you'll realize that it's more about Facebook complaining their business will be more heavily regulated in Brazil than outright censorship.

rbanffy 11y ago

That and that Facebook may have to comply with valid court orders. How outrageous a judge telling what Facebook should do.

aianus 11y ago
A judge in a corrupt third-world country can say whatever he wants, I don't think Facebook should blindly be following court orders from overseas.
- Tomte 11y ago
  "Overseas" in that context would be the US, right? :-) We have exactly that problem with Facebook and other big US companies in Europe (Uber comes to mind): they act in Europe (and do damage here), but hide in the US. Oftentimes not even replying to court orders, because hey, what can a lowly regional court judge from Germany do, right? If you want to play here, comply with our laws. If you don't, then don't be surprised if your business is shut down. I can totally understand the attitude of the Brazilian judge, even if the result is terrible. But suddenly he is paid attention! Chapeau!
  - aianus 11y ago
    Why should a lowly regional judge in Germany (or the US for that matter) be allowed to meddle with a national or global communications network? There must be millions of judges in the world, many of whom are corrupt, power-hungry, or just plain stupid. It would be silly for Facebook, Google, etc. to blindly obey each one of their ramblings. Edit: s/shut down/meddle with/
    - Tomte 11y ago
      We make sure our justice system is not corrupt. You don't get to ignore our laws, just because you conveniently hint to corruption. If you feel our country is too corrupt to make business in, great, stay away. Why should we allow extra-legal, non-elected company managers from abroad to trump our constitutional, legal and parliamentary-approved laws?
      - aianus 11y ago
        I'm sure you believe your country's laws are fair, just, constitutional, and parliamentary-approved. However, so do Thai people believe about their laws against insulting their King. Do you think Facebook should be in the business of censoring posts insulting the Thai King just because some judge there gives them a court order? I maintain that Facebook should, in general, ignore foreign court orders and just do what's right. At the risk, of course, of being blocked entirely in that country.
        Tomte 11y ago
        If they want to do business there, sure. The alternative stands: get out of the country. You maintain that Facebook should, in general, follow your legal system. Do you believe that America and only America is "fair, just, constitutional, and parliamentary-approved"? That's basically American exceptionalism at its best.
        msh 11y ago
        So if the US wants info on users of a German app who have no servers or offices in the US it should just give it to them? Even if the offense they are suspected of is not illegal in Germany? My point is that Brazil should follow legal procedures and have a American judge issue a supena. That's what a MLAT is for.
        germanier 11y ago
        I'm sure the Brazilian judge followed Brazilian legal procedures. That's the entire point of being a Brazilian judge. There might be other means to achieve a goal but that doesn't mean what happened isn't legal. In your example, if that German app was targeted to US users (e.g. by localization and marketing) then yes, they should follow US laws. That's a test German courts use to determine whether they have jurisdiction in the digital world and I think that's fair and should be applied in the other direction as well. If they don't want to or can't (e.g. by contractual obligations or German law) they shouldn't act surprised if the US doesn't allow US business to trade with them.
- rbanffy 11y ago
  The same way that, when I open an office in the US I must live with a series of arbitrary laws I may not agree with (or that horrify me), when you open an office in a corrupt third-world country, you are supposed to obey the law or suffer the consequences.