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I think journalists and police chiefs/PR often misuse the "few bad apples" metaphor. A few rotten apples will ruin the whole barrel. Their rot encourages the r

I think journalists and police chiefs/PR often misuse the "few bad apples" metaphor. A few rotten apples will ruin the whole barrel. Their rot encourages the rest of the apples to rot. A few bad apples can't be tolerated-- they have to be sorted out immediately or the whole barrel will be ruined and has to be thrown out. I feel that it's an appropriate metaphor.

eljimmy 11y ago
That is a very well put metaphor that we should definitely refer to more often when discussing corruption amongst law enforcement.
tptacek 11y ago
This is, of course, the sustained point of the middle part of this article.
- danso 11y ago
  Is it? The paragraph that the GP purportedly objects to: > The “few bad apples” theory of police violence posits that a small portion of the police force is ill-intentioned or inclined to misconduct or violence, while the majority of officers are good cops. One of the middle paragraphs that I believe you are referring to: > In addition to the outsize number of complaints, Kalven said, repeaters have broader, cultural impacts, both within and outside of the department. Within the department, repeaters might normalize misconduct toward residents, pushing other cops toward wrongdoing. Outside of the department, the behavior of these officers can turn the community against the police. “That’s what the ‘few bad apples’ theory doesn’t capture: the kind of compounding, metastasizing arms that flow from the impunity of bad cops,” Kalven said. If the OP -- and the people that the OP cites -- has the correct interpretation of "bad apples", then the very point of examining the "bad apples theory" would be to capture the "kind of compounding, metastasizing arms that flow from the impunity of bad cops"...the way that quoted graf is phrased, it's as if the "bad apples theory" (and I think "theory" is being used incorrectly here, perhaps) were something different than the idea that bad apples cause the good apples to rot. I skimmed the article twice but didn't see any chart, stat, or anecdote that alluded to examination of the impact of an officer on their precinct. That is, when a "bad apple" moves to a new precinct, does that precinct's rate of complaints increase in addition to the bad apple's expected rate of complaints? The OP is mostly concerned with controlling for factors to argue that bad apples really are bad apples and not because they are in bad environments: > Even after controlling for neighborhood, however, individual officers with more complaints in 2011-13 remained more likely to have complaints filed against them in 2014-15. Which of course...is very important to analyze. But it seems straightforward to do a event-time analysis in which, after a major disciplinary incident, or even just a string of minor incidents, in which an officer is apparently unsanctioned, does that impact the rate of misconduct complaints among the other officers in the subsequent months? This could be applied to both bad officers who are being moved around (e.g. Prezbo-style as in "The Wire") or who, for whatever reason, don't get moved around.
  - jessaustin 11y ago
    Yeah TFA thinks the important word in the phrase "few bad apples" is "few", but that's wrong.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      Fair enough!
    - scmoore 11y ago
      There's a common misinterpretation of the end of that phrase -- I blame the Osmonds: "One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch, girl / Oh, give it one more try / Before you give up on love" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96HqPpjI3UY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96HqPpjI3UY
doug1001 11y ago
ethylene glycol--it's what causes a 'bad' apple to cause neighboring apples to also spoil. i think it works something like this: e/g is hormone or hormone-like gas whose biochemical function is to promote ripening. in any event, ripe fruit emit e/g (it's a gas) which provokes the ripening response in neighboring fruit. (Leave some apples in a closed plastic bag and see how much faster they go bad versus the same number arranged the same way sitting in an open bowl)
- danieltillett 11y ago
  Just to be nit picky it is the gas ethylene [1], not ethylene glycol [2] that is involved in ripening fruit - ethylene glycol is what is used to help sell Austrian wine. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_glycol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_glycol
jessaustin 11y ago
When Van Dyke can shoot a gunless prone person sixteen times while twenty other cops just look on rather than stopping him at five or six, they're all rotten. If their training is no better than this, they should carry break-action pistols without magazines. On the other hand, in some cities it would be considered a miracle if an officer were capable of emptying his weapon without losing any shots downrange, so they have that going for them.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- pm24601 11y ago
  The other officers did have the presence of mind to delete the Burger King security footage.
- SideburnsOfDoom 11y ago
  Yes; The rottenness of the other officers does not necessarily mean that they do these bad things, it means that they provide a shield for some officers to continue to behave like this. It means that they enable this behaviour. It means that they cover for it.
  - DougN7 11y ago
    This is what is so damning. Until the good officers stop supporting the bad officers, the public will be against all of them. Seems so obvious, but they don't seem to get it.
vehementi 11y ago
It's appropriate, ironically, because they do spoil the bunch in the police force. If people in your police force are committing crimes and you are standing by, your police force contains exactly zero good cops.
jordanb 11y ago
As an aside, every time I see a politician or executive blaming bad apples I start singing this Harry Shearer song to myself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPc3PEmvdQE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPc3PEmvdQE

eljimmy 11y ago

That is a very well put metaphor that we should definitely refer to more often when discussing corruption amongst law enforcement.

tptacek 11y ago

This is, of course, the sustained point of the middle part of this article.

danso 11y ago
Is it? The paragraph that the GP purportedly objects to: > The “few bad apples” theory of police violence posits that a small portion of the police force is ill-intentioned or inclined to misconduct or violence, while the majority of officers are good cops. One of the middle paragraphs that I believe you are referring to: > In addition to the outsize number of complaints, Kalven said, repeaters have broader, cultural impacts, both within and outside of the department. Within the department, repeaters might normalize misconduct toward residents, pushing other cops toward wrongdoing. Outside of the department, the behavior of these officers can turn the community against the police. “That’s what the ‘few bad apples’ theory doesn’t capture: the kind of compounding, metastasizing arms that flow from the impunity of bad cops,” Kalven said. If the OP -- and the people that the OP cites -- has the correct interpretation of "bad apples", then the very point of examining the "bad apples theory" would be to capture the "kind of compounding, metastasizing arms that flow from the impunity of bad cops"...the way that quoted graf is phrased, it's as if the "bad apples theory" (and I think "theory" is being used incorrectly here, perhaps) were something different than the idea that bad apples cause the good apples to rot. I skimmed the article twice but didn't see any chart, stat, or anecdote that alluded to examination of the impact of an officer on their precinct. That is, when a "bad apple" moves to a new precinct, does that precinct's rate of complaints increase in addition to the bad apple's expected rate of complaints? The OP is mostly concerned with controlling for factors to argue that bad apples really are bad apples and not because they are in bad environments: > Even after controlling for neighborhood, however, individual officers with more complaints in 2011-13 remained more likely to have complaints filed against them in 2014-15. Which of course...is very important to analyze. But it seems straightforward to do a event-time analysis in which, after a major disciplinary incident, or even just a string of minor incidents, in which an officer is apparently unsanctioned, does that impact the rate of misconduct complaints among the other officers in the subsequent months? This could be applied to both bad officers who are being moved around (e.g. Prezbo-style as in "The Wire") or who, for whatever reason, don't get moved around.
- jessaustin 11y ago
  Yeah TFA thinks the important word in the phrase "few bad apples" is "few", but that's wrong.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    Fair enough!
  - scmoore 11y ago
    There's a common misinterpretation of the end of that phrase -- I blame the Osmonds: "One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch, girl / Oh, give it one more try / Before you give up on love" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96HqPpjI3UY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96HqPpjI3UY

doug1001 11y ago

ethylene glycol--it's what causes a 'bad' apple to cause neighboring apples to also spoil. i think it works something like this: e/g is hormone or hormone-like gas whose biochemical function is to promote ripening. in any event, ripe fruit emit e/g (it's a gas) which provokes the ripening response in neighboring fruit. (Leave some apples in a closed plastic bag and see how much faster they go bad versus the same number arranged the same way sitting in an open bowl)

danieltillett 11y ago
Just to be nit picky it is the gas ethylene [1], not ethylene glycol [2] that is involved in ripening fruit - ethylene glycol is what is used to help sell Austrian wine. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_glycol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_glycol

jessaustin 11y ago

When Van Dyke can shoot a gunless prone person sixteen times while twenty other cops just look on rather than stopping him at five or six, they're all rotten. If their training is no better than this, they should carry break-action pistols without magazines. On the other hand, in some cities it would be considered a miracle if an officer were capable of emptying his weapon without losing any shots downrange, so they have that going for them.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
pm24601 11y ago
The other officers did have the presence of mind to delete the Burger King security footage.
SideburnsOfDoom 11y ago
Yes; The rottenness of the other officers does not necessarily mean that they do these bad things, it means that they provide a shield for some officers to continue to behave like this. It means that they enable this behaviour. It means that they cover for it.
- DougN7 11y ago
  This is what is so damning. Until the good officers stop supporting the bad officers, the public will be against all of them. Seems so obvious, but they don't seem to get it.

vehementi 11y ago

It's appropriate, ironically, because they do spoil the bunch in the police force. If people in your police force are committing crimes and you are standing by, your police force contains exactly zero good cops.

jordanb 11y ago

As an aside, every time I see a politician or executive blaming bad apples I start singing this Harry Shearer song to myself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPc3PEmvdQE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPc3PEmvdQE