10 ms·

The Insults of Age

130 points by diodorus 11y ago

cafard 11y ago
Hmm. It's easier on men, I guess. It does wound my vanity a bit when young women on the bus offer me a seat. But otherwise, being on the large size and generally glum looking, I don't get people baby-talking me or condescending much.
- larrymcp 11y ago
  It was funny when the chick at Starbucks called me "sir". Heh.. "sir"... that didn't happen when I was in my early 20's...
  - zo1 11y ago
    Really? I've been referred to as "sir" by sales individuals for quite a while, even in my early-twenties. I guess it's a culture thing.
manmal 11y ago
Interesting story! To me it seems Ms Garner is ok with growing old and more fragile, but does not accept being viewed as inferior or respect-unworthy. Good for her! I wish more elderly people would decouple their loss of youth from their self regard.
- onesixtythree 11y ago
  To me it seems Ms Garner is ok with growing old and more fragile, but does not accept being viewed as inferior or respect-unworthy. Good for her! Amen. Not that I would want to live at the other extreme (such as in some Asian societies where age is venerated without qualification) but I think that our society's view of age is seriously broken.
- RyanMcGreal 11y ago
  > I wish more elderly people would decouple their loss of youth from their self regard. I think Garner's point is that we live in a society in which other people's regard for your worth is a function of your age.
  - epimetheus 11y ago
    And yet, hypocritically, she negatively judges the youth as such.
    - WalterSear 11y ago
      Furthermore, she considers a innocent question from a child as a insult to her age and gender.
      - rustynails77 11y ago
        That's not the half of it. This author deserves no respect based on that article. She is typical of "me me me" and the continual flow of sexism we see from Australian journalists. The last few decades in Australian media have been a dark spot. This author is sexist, arrogant and takes pride in yanking a strange girl's hair (which is tantamount to assault). "In two strides I was behind the schoolgirl. I reached up, seized her ponytail at the roots and gave it a sharp downward yank." "My only regret is that I couldn’t see the Asian woman’s face at the moment the schoolgirl’s head jerked back and her insolent grin turned into a rictus."
        humanrebar 11y ago
        Also: "The armed child behind the police station counter unable to conceal her boredom...."
        WalterSear 11y ago
        Yes, however I originally felt uncomfortable commenting much further here, at the risk of being accused of sexism.
- gohrt 11y ago
  What I saw in the article is that Ms Garner doesn't care much for respect, she just doesn't want to be looked at as weak because she is old are a woman. Her stories demonstrate consistent pride in the contempt with which she treats the people around her.
dasil003 11y ago
When you are this talented at communication in general it must be triply annoying to be condescended to.
- onesixtythree 11y ago
  People overestimate the mental decline that comes with age dramatically. It's more sporadic: most people decline very little, while a few people (i.e. those with dementia) get hit very hard. Unfortunately, much of society forms its model of "old people" based on the "hit very hard" category, and not people like Jacques Barzun, who did his best work in his 80s and 90s. There's something you observe with biological mental illness which is that it's more stigmatized than it deserves because people encounter the "raving, crazy" people with it (the worst-off 2%) and not the other 98% for whom depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, et al, are more accurately modeled as boring and often manageable health problems than as residence in an alternative universe. I think that the cognitive negatives of aging (typically mild to nonexistent, except in senescent brain diseases like Alzheimer's) get the same smear. In fact, various studies have put the intellectual peak age (in healthy people) anywhere from 17 to 65 (except for in language acquisition, at which we peak in childhood). That's largely because the curve is so flat and individualized (e.g. some people peak early, some late) that it's impossible to tell.
doki_pen 11y ago
It's interesting that I've had the complete opposite experience as a white man. The older I get the more respect I get in public, for no apparent reason. The painting example was so apt. No one would dare step between me and a painting. It's a very odd thing, as I don't feel like I deserve any more respect than I did 20 years ago.
- onesixtythree 11y ago
  Age is a weird prejudice because it depends so much on environment. In most companies, you're viewed negatively before age 30: you're expected to work the worst hours because the assumption is that you have nothing "better" to do and would just be out drinking. In Silicon Valley, you're viewed negatively after 30. Some doors close and others open. I do find, strangely, that I'm way more attractive to women now that I'm older, even though my looks have (objectively) declined. Adolescent men are unwanted, invisible, and generally disliked by society unless they're in the top 5% for social skills; things get better at 25 and a lot better after 30... although I'm still glad that I married young because I'd imagine that the dating pool shrinks considerably.
  - beachstartup 11y ago
    > although I'm still glad that I married young because I'd imagine that the dating pool shrinks considerably. it actually doesn't, in fact it grows continuously, but you'll just be shamed by older women and married men for dating younger women.
    - larrymcp 11y ago
      Yep... I didn't take my GF to the office Christmas party, cuz I didn't wanna hear the comments. ay!
    - ihaveajob 11y ago
      Obligatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/314/ https://xkcd.com/314/
    - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
eloisant 11y ago
Older people used to be considered wiser and respected. The baby-boomer generation basically invented ageism when they were young in the 70's, it's ironic to see it bite them back now.
- venomsnake 11y ago
  It is about how you get old. Keep in shape and your brain sharp and you will be fine.
  - ArkyBeagle 11y ago
    Round is a shape.
- jpmattia 11y ago
  The baby-boomer generation basically invented ageism when they were young in the 70's Earlier than that. The original "Never trust anyone over 30" was already a saying by the mid-sixties as a consequence of FSM: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Free_Speech_Movement https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Free_Speech_Movement The movement itself was just another step in the protests of the civil liberties movement, and to some degree HUAC. I'm sure we could go back farther, but that's just off the top of my head. Essentially, every new generation denigrates the older generation, and each older generation thinks the newer generation is going to hell-in-a-handbasket. There is nothing new under the sun.
  - Namrog84 11y ago
    Thanks for the wikipedia link. At first glance I was like what does the Flying Spaghetti Monster have to do with this.
    - zentiggr 11y ago
      omg, nose coffee... Thanks!
- dominotw 11y ago
Aaronik 11y ago
Yes! The internet needs more old people posting to it! No society is complete without people of all ages - people of all wisdoms you might say - sharing their knowledge and opinions. Our blogs are noticeably lacking the voice of the elderly, undoubtedly b/c the elderly use the tech less for sure, but it's unfortunate for us. Maybe in 50 years the internet will be a much more temperate place ;)
bootload 11y ago
"In two strides I was behind the schoolgirl. I reached up, seized her ponytail at the roots and gave it a sharp downward yank. Her head snapped back. In a voice I didn’t recognise I snarled, “Give it a rest, darling.” She twisted to look behind her. Her eyes were bulging, her mouth agape. I let go and she bolted away to her friends. The three of them set off at a run. Their white ribbons went bobbing through the crowd all the way along the City Square and up the steps of the Melbourne Town Hall, where a famous private school was holding its speech night. The whole thing happened so fast that when I fell into step beside my friend she hadn’t even noticed I was gone." The city is Melbourne, the author Helen Garner [0] and the casual racism is pretty accurate. Yet the response should not be condoned. If you switch a 70 year old woman, to a 70 year old man, the man would be detailed and assault charges laid. As ugly as the racism is, using this kind of force shows a level of entitlement you often see with people who have had authority. [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Garner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Garner [1] Garner was a High School teacher till '72.
- chetanahuja 11y ago
  "If you switch a 70 year old woman, to a 70 year old man" Or pretty much anybody other than an elderly white woman (in a "western" country). Anyway, I don't think the physical violence was necessary but I do admire her intervention on behalf of a stranger against an obnoxious (probably racist) act.
  - bootload 11y ago
    "I do admire her intervention on behalf of a stranger against an obnoxious (probably racist) act." Over-reaction. The lesson shown here to kids and those watching, if you feel others are being threatened, physically strike back. There is no immediate threat, words would have done the job.

130 points by diodorus 11y ago

Hmm. It's easier on men, I guess. It does wound my vanity a bit when young women on the bus offer me a seat. But otherwise, being on the large size and generally glum looking, I don't get people baby-talking me or condescending much.

larrymcp 11y ago
It was funny when the chick at Starbucks called me "sir". Heh.. "sir"... that didn't happen when I was in my early 20's...
- zo1 11y ago
  Really? I've been referred to as "sir" by sales individuals for quite a while, even in my early-twenties. I guess it's a culture thing.

manmal 11y ago

Interesting story! To me it seems Ms Garner is ok with growing old and more fragile, but does not accept being viewed as inferior or respect-unworthy. Good for her! I wish more elderly people would decouple their loss of youth from their self regard.

onesixtythree 11y ago
To me it seems Ms Garner is ok with growing old and more fragile, but does not accept being viewed as inferior or respect-unworthy. Good for her! Amen. Not that I would want to live at the other extreme (such as in some Asian societies where age is venerated without qualification) but I think that our society's view of age is seriously broken.
RyanMcGreal 11y ago
> I wish more elderly people would decouple their loss of youth from their self regard. I think Garner's point is that we live in a society in which other people's regard for your worth is a function of your age.
- epimetheus 11y ago
  And yet, hypocritically, she negatively judges the youth as such.
  - WalterSear 11y ago
    Furthermore, she considers a innocent question from a child as a insult to her age and gender.
    - rustynails77 11y ago
      That's not the half of it. This author deserves no respect based on that article. She is typical of "me me me" and the continual flow of sexism we see from Australian journalists. The last few decades in Australian media have been a dark spot. This author is sexist, arrogant and takes pride in yanking a strange girl's hair (which is tantamount to assault). "In two strides I was behind the schoolgirl. I reached up, seized her ponytail at the roots and gave it a sharp downward yank." "My only regret is that I couldn’t see the Asian woman’s face at the moment the schoolgirl’s head jerked back and her insolent grin turned into a rictus."
      - humanrebar 11y ago
        Also: "The armed child behind the police station counter unable to conceal her boredom...."
      - WalterSear 11y ago
        Yes, however I originally felt uncomfortable commenting much further here, at the risk of being accused of sexism.
gohrt 11y ago
What I saw in the article is that Ms Garner doesn't care much for respect, she just doesn't want to be looked at as weak because she is old are a woman. Her stories demonstrate consistent pride in the contempt with which she treats the people around her.

dasil003 11y ago

When you are this talented at communication in general it must be triply annoying to be condescended to.

onesixtythree 11y ago
People overestimate the mental decline that comes with age dramatically. It's more sporadic: most people decline very little, while a few people (i.e. those with dementia) get hit very hard. Unfortunately, much of society forms its model of "old people" based on the "hit very hard" category, and not people like Jacques Barzun, who did his best work in his 80s and 90s. There's something you observe with biological mental illness which is that it's more stigmatized than it deserves because people encounter the "raving, crazy" people with it (the worst-off 2%) and not the other 98% for whom depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, et al, are more accurately modeled as boring and often manageable health problems than as residence in an alternative universe. I think that the cognitive negatives of aging (typically mild to nonexistent, except in senescent brain diseases like Alzheimer's) get the same smear. In fact, various studies have put the intellectual peak age (in healthy people) anywhere from 17 to 65 (except for in language acquisition, at which we peak in childhood). That's largely because the curve is so flat and individualized (e.g. some people peak early, some late) that it's impossible to tell.

doki_pen 11y ago

It's interesting that I've had the complete opposite experience as a white man. The older I get the more respect I get in public, for no apparent reason. The painting example was so apt. No one would dare step between me and a painting. It's a very odd thing, as I don't feel like I deserve any more respect than I did 20 years ago.

onesixtythree 11y ago
Age is a weird prejudice because it depends so much on environment. In most companies, you're viewed negatively before age 30: you're expected to work the worst hours because the assumption is that you have nothing "better" to do and would just be out drinking. In Silicon Valley, you're viewed negatively after 30. Some doors close and others open. I do find, strangely, that I'm way more attractive to women now that I'm older, even though my looks have (objectively) declined. Adolescent men are unwanted, invisible, and generally disliked by society unless they're in the top 5% for social skills; things get better at 25 and a lot better after 30... although I'm still glad that I married young because I'd imagine that the dating pool shrinks considerably.
- beachstartup 11y ago
  > although I'm still glad that I married young because I'd imagine that the dating pool shrinks considerably. it actually doesn't, in fact it grows continuously, but you'll just be shamed by older women and married men for dating younger women.
  - larrymcp 11y ago
    Yep... I didn't take my GF to the office Christmas party, cuz I didn't wanna hear the comments. ay!
  - ihaveajob 11y ago
    Obligatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/314/ https://xkcd.com/314/
  - Lawtonfogle 11y ago

eloisant 11y ago

Older people used to be considered wiser and respected. The baby-boomer generation basically invented ageism when they were young in the 70's, it's ironic to see it bite them back now.

venomsnake 11y ago
It is about how you get old. Keep in shape and your brain sharp and you will be fine.
- ArkyBeagle 11y ago
  Round is a shape.
jpmattia 11y ago
The baby-boomer generation basically invented ageism when they were young in the 70's Earlier than that. The original "Never trust anyone over 30" was already a saying by the mid-sixties as a consequence of FSM: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Free_Speech_Movement https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Free_Speech_Movement The movement itself was just another step in the protests of the civil liberties movement, and to some degree HUAC. I'm sure we could go back farther, but that's just off the top of my head. Essentially, every new generation denigrates the older generation, and each older generation thinks the newer generation is going to hell-in-a-handbasket. There is nothing new under the sun.
- Namrog84 11y ago
  Thanks for the wikipedia link. At first glance I was like what does the Flying Spaghetti Monster have to do with this.
  - zentiggr 11y ago
    omg, nose coffee... Thanks!
dominotw 11y ago

Aaronik 11y ago

Yes! The internet needs more old people posting to it! No society is complete without people of all ages - people of all wisdoms you might say - sharing their knowledge and opinions. Our blogs are noticeably lacking the voice of the elderly, undoubtedly b/c the elderly use the tech less for sure, but it's unfortunate for us. Maybe in 50 years the internet will be a much more temperate place ;)

bootload 11y ago

"In two strides I was behind the schoolgirl. I reached up, seized her ponytail at the roots and gave it a sharp downward yank. Her head snapped back. In a voice I didn’t recognise I snarled, “Give it a rest, darling.” She twisted to look behind her. Her eyes were bulging, her mouth agape. I let go and she bolted away to her friends. The three of them set off at a run. Their white ribbons went bobbing through the crowd all the way along the City Square and up the steps of the Melbourne Town Hall, where a famous private school was holding its speech night. The whole thing happened so fast that when I fell into step beside my friend she hadn’t even noticed I was gone." The city is Melbourne, the author Helen Garner [0] and the casual racism is pretty accurate. Yet the response should not be condoned. If you switch a 70 year old woman, to a 70 year old man, the man would be detailed and assault charges laid. As ugly as the racism is, using this kind of force shows a level of entitlement you often see with people who have had authority. [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Garner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Garner [1] Garner was a High School teacher till '72.

chetanahuja 11y ago
"If you switch a 70 year old woman, to a 70 year old man" Or pretty much anybody other than an elderly white woman (in a "western" country). Anyway, I don't think the physical violence was necessary but I do admire her intervention on behalf of a stranger against an obnoxious (probably racist) act.
- bootload 11y ago
  "I do admire her intervention on behalf of a stranger against an obnoxious (probably racist) act." Over-reaction. The lesson shown here to kids and those watching, if you feel others are being threatened, physically strike back. There is no immediate threat, words would have done the job.