5 ms·

being forced to pray at school events is pretty simple, the teacher asks "why aren't you praying?" and sends you to the principals office. nobody within a 200mi

by munin 11y ago

being forced to pray at school events is pretty simple, the teacher asks "why aren't you praying?" and sends you to the principals office. nobody within a 200mi radius of you thinks that there is anything wrong with this because "it's the way it's always been" and there's no higher power to appeal to, so... how can you "have an honest dialogue" with someone that thinks that you are going to burn in Hell and tells you that your ideas about women, voting, and abortion are "the Devils"?

talmand 11y ago
No, that's a mild punishment for not praying at a school event. That is not forcing you to pray, you can continue to refuse to pray in that case. Were you somehow forced to pray once you got to the principal's office? There is always a higher power to appeal to unless the head of your country's government and legal system agrees with the sentiment. I agree it's a hard path to take, but the option is there. I guess in the same way you try to have an honest dialogue with a person that insists you are stupid and they can dismiss anything you say because of your beliefs. Both are equally guilty of refusing to participate in the dialogue. Many of the intellectuals refuse to see their failing is evident as much as the overly religious person's failing.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > No, that's a mild punishment for not praying at a school event. That is not forcing you to pray Imposing punishments for failure to comply is coercion, and fairly described as forcing, or at least attempting to force, someone to do the act toward which the coercion is directed.
  - talmand 11y ago
    So, going to the principal's office is a punishment so severe that it forces the student to pray when said student doesn't want to? I mean, if they were beating the child I could agree, but a trip to the principal's office? I fail to see how that can force anyone to do anything.
- mikeash 11y ago
  So we're not forced to pay taxes or refrain from murdering people?
  - talmand 11y ago
    No, you are not. Years back the head of the IRS famously made the statement that the US federal tax system is voluntary. You volunteer to pay it in the manner they describe. Now, I agree that if you refuse to pay it then there will be consequences for failure of payment. But that's not the same as someone beating you to force you sign the check. It seems that people are doing their best to impose their definition of being forced to do something without bothering to see what it is I mean by my original statement. Here's a simplistic view of it. If I do some sort of negative thing to you before you do/don't commit an act I don't/do want you to make, then I'm forcing you; "ex: I'll stop hurting you when you do this!" If I do some sort of negative thing to you after you do/don't commit an act I don't/do want you to make, then I'm punishing you; "ex: You did this and now I'll hurt you!" There's a difference between those two things, but I agree the line dividing them is very fine. I hope I got those do/don't and don't/do parts right and it's understandable. So, for the kid refusing to pray in school. Being sent to the principal's office after refusal is not forcing the student to do anything. So far the student hasn't prayed, therefore not forced. If the student views being sent to the office as punishment and decides to pray from then on to avoid going to the office again, you could have the view that the kid is being forced with threats of future punishments. I don't necessarily agree with that but I can understand the thinking. The reason I don't agree with it is because if I rob a bank and get caught, I go to jail. I've been punished. I know that if I rob another bank I'll likely go to jail again, therefore with that logic I'm somehow being forced to not rob another bank if I choose to not do so. But, I can easily rob another bank to face possible punishment afterwards. To force a student to pray in school can simply be paddling the student and then demand they pray so the paddling shall stop. In the story I responded to, the student was punished (possibly repeatedly) for not praying.
- deciplex 11y ago
  You seem to be suggesting that he wasn't "forced" to pray, because could have, and did not, appeal his mild (according to you) punishment all the way to the Supreme Court. That's, ah, unconvincing, to put it lightly.
  - talmand 11y ago
    That's funny, that's not what I said at all. You're combining two different points in response to the post in an attempt to make it seem I said something other than what I said.

by munin 11y ago

talmand 11y ago

No, that's a mild punishment for not praying at a school event. That is not forcing you to pray, you can continue to refuse to pray in that case. Were you somehow forced to pray once you got to the principal's office? There is always a higher power to appeal to unless the head of your country's government and legal system agrees with the sentiment. I agree it's a hard path to take, but the option is there. I guess in the same way you try to have an honest dialogue with a person that insists you are stupid and they can dismiss anything you say because of your beliefs. Both are equally guilty of refusing to participate in the dialogue. Many of the intellectuals refuse to see their failing is evident as much as the overly religious person's failing.

dragonwriter 11y ago
> No, that's a mild punishment for not praying at a school event. That is not forcing you to pray Imposing punishments for failure to comply is coercion, and fairly described as forcing, or at least attempting to force, someone to do the act toward which the coercion is directed.
- talmand 11y ago
  So, going to the principal's office is a punishment so severe that it forces the student to pray when said student doesn't want to? I mean, if they were beating the child I could agree, but a trip to the principal's office? I fail to see how that can force anyone to do anything.
mikeash 11y ago
So we're not forced to pay taxes or refrain from murdering people?
- talmand 11y ago
  No, you are not. Years back the head of the IRS famously made the statement that the US federal tax system is voluntary. You volunteer to pay it in the manner they describe. Now, I agree that if you refuse to pay it then there will be consequences for failure of payment. But that's not the same as someone beating you to force you sign the check. It seems that people are doing their best to impose their definition of being forced to do something without bothering to see what it is I mean by my original statement. Here's a simplistic view of it. If I do some sort of negative thing to you before you do/don't commit an act I don't/do want you to make, then I'm forcing you; "ex: I'll stop hurting you when you do this!" If I do some sort of negative thing to you after you do/don't commit an act I don't/do want you to make, then I'm punishing you; "ex: You did this and now I'll hurt you!" There's a difference between those two things, but I agree the line dividing them is very fine. I hope I got those do/don't and don't/do parts right and it's understandable. So, for the kid refusing to pray in school. Being sent to the principal's office after refusal is not forcing the student to do anything. So far the student hasn't prayed, therefore not forced. If the student views being sent to the office as punishment and decides to pray from then on to avoid going to the office again, you could have the view that the kid is being forced with threats of future punishments. I don't necessarily agree with that but I can understand the thinking. The reason I don't agree with it is because if I rob a bank and get caught, I go to jail. I've been punished. I know that if I rob another bank I'll likely go to jail again, therefore with that logic I'm somehow being forced to not rob another bank if I choose to not do so. But, I can easily rob another bank to face possible punishment afterwards. To force a student to pray in school can simply be paddling the student and then demand they pray so the paddling shall stop. In the story I responded to, the student was punished (possibly repeatedly) for not praying.
deciplex 11y ago
You seem to be suggesting that he wasn't "forced" to pray, because could have, and did not, appeal his mild (according to you) punishment all the way to the Supreme Court. That's, ah, unconvincing, to put it lightly.
- talmand 11y ago
  That's funny, that's not what I said at all. You're combining two different points in response to the post in an attempt to make it seem I said something other than what I said.