7 ms·

I don't recognise the prejudice against practical skills in my neck of the woods (CS dept in a UK university) but religious colleagues are quietly looked down u

I don't recognise the prejudice against practical skills in my neck of the woods (CS dept in a UK university) but religious colleagues are quietly looked down upon and sometimes mocked. (Not that there are many of them.) I try as hard as I can not to judge such people myself but will admit to finding it hard to take someone seriously who believes in such stuff. Being able or unable to change a tyre doesn't come close to the epistemological facepalm of trusting in the dove from above.

FussyZeus 11y ago
Speaking as someone who does: Those of us who do are often raised in a very religious place among very religious people, it's a big part of our lives. Rationally, I have no reason to believe in any God. That's why it's called a belief. It's a lot more to do with the culture one grows up with than the belief itself, and anything you learn at such a young age is difficult to shake loose of completely. Personally, I used to be a strong Lutheran, I'd say I'm now 20% Lutheran and 80% agnostic, but even that has far less to do with me intellectually not recognizing my God and a lot more to do with frustrations over the behaviors of organized religions. In short: For a lot of people that I know and myself, religion is far less believing that God is going to help you in some way (frankly, if you know your Bible, you know God's help tends to come in rather rough and leaves a lot of things broken so you don't really want it anyway) and lot more in believing that it's just a nicer universe to live in if you assume that you simply cease to exist at the point of death and there is nothing but...well, nothing awaiting you over that line.
- BellsOnSunday 11y ago
  I was brought up amongst and by religious people too, so I don't automatically assume people are stupid for having beliefs. But I'm aware that is really just a rhetorical position on my part, and when faced with someone who claims to be a scientist, living in the west in the 21st century, and who actually believes this stuff (e.g. the afterlife) then it is just difficult to take them seriously. That makes me vulnerable to accusations of having a closed mind, etc, I know...but I stopped believing in those things (if I ever did) around the same time I stopped believing in Father Christmas, so you'll have to cut me some slack :) And you actually make it worse when you justify your beliefs by saying that they make the Universe a "nicer" place to live in, which is just juvenile (I can imagine even nicer universes, would you like to believe in them instead?). I would stop at your previous statement about not needing to rationalise belief (in fact it's a category error to do so).
  - engi_nerd 11y ago
    People need things to comfort them. Parent's believe in an afterlife is obviously a comforting thought for them. I wouldn't call that being juvenile so much as being human.
  - xupybd 11y ago
    >and when faced with someone who claims to be a scientist, living in the west in the 21st century, and who actually believes this stuff (e.g. the afterlife) then it is just difficult to take them seriously Is this something you have to do regularly, make judgements on scientists based on their speculations of an afterlife? Wouldn't it be far better to make judgments based on their contribution to their field? Does this mean we should not take Francis S. Collins seriously?
  - FussyZeus 11y ago
    I don't know your familiarity with the Bible, but there's nothing in it that tells us to not seek knowledge, there is nothing in it that tells us never to question creation. The way I look at it: If a God did indeed create us, and intended us to be his savage servants for life, he wouldn't have created us with a mind capable of excelling beyond that state. I don't want to get into a huge theological thing, my policy on this is always the same: You do you, I'll do me, and we'll get along fine. If we get to a point where we can find out what the afterlife is, if it exists, then we can re-evaluate beliefs at that point, but I don't think we're anywhere close to that, so until then I'll keep my faith and all I ask is the respect that anyone else would deserve.
  - someguydave 11y ago
    Is it actually irrational to believe in something if your evidence is 'I just know it because God told me'?
- someguydave 11y ago
  As a fellow Lutheran from the Midwest I think you've done a good job in this thread at representing a minority opinion on this forum.
druddha 11y ago
Mocking or looking down on people is generally a poor practice. However, it should not surprise someone in the sciences if they are passed over for job opportunities based on their religious beliefs. Those beliefs may limit your capacity to effectively perform your job.
- peterhadlaw 11y ago
  Then I wonder what your reaction is to learning that there is a significant portion [citation needed] of doctors / surgeons that either keep or expand their religious fate as they go through incredibly difficult times in their careers. Some of which would otherwise fail to continue.
  - druddha 11y ago
    No reaction. That something provides you with comfort does not make it true.
    - peterhadlaw 11y ago
      If you look at the parent of my comment, you'll see that I wasn't referring to if [what the doctors have faith in] is true or not but rather their faith enables (some of) them to do what they would otherwise not be able to do. Which is contrary to the parent's comment stating that having faith would deem you less capable of fulfilling your job.
      - druddha 11y ago
        That was my comment, and I was speaking strictly about sciences (as the previous commenter said he works in a CS department at a university). Even so, your counterpoint still holds no water. Just because many of them turn to faith during difficult times does not mean they necessarily perform their job function at a higher level as a result.
- stefantalpalaru 11y ago
  > Those beliefs may limit your capacity to effectively perform your job. Sounds like an unsubstantiated belief to me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christians_in_science_and_technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christians_in_science_...

FussyZeus 11y ago

Speaking as someone who does: Those of us who do are often raised in a very religious place among very religious people, it's a big part of our lives. Rationally, I have no reason to believe in any God. That's why it's called a belief. It's a lot more to do with the culture one grows up with than the belief itself, and anything you learn at such a young age is difficult to shake loose of completely. Personally, I used to be a strong Lutheran, I'd say I'm now 20% Lutheran and 80% agnostic, but even that has far less to do with me intellectually not recognizing my God and a lot more to do with frustrations over the behaviors of organized religions. In short: For a lot of people that I know and myself, religion is far less believing that God is going to help you in some way (frankly, if you know your Bible, you know God's help tends to come in rather rough and leaves a lot of things broken so you don't really want it anyway) and lot more in believing that it's just a nicer universe to live in if you assume that you simply cease to exist at the point of death and there is nothing but...well, nothing awaiting you over that line.

BellsOnSunday 11y ago
I was brought up amongst and by religious people too, so I don't automatically assume people are stupid for having beliefs. But I'm aware that is really just a rhetorical position on my part, and when faced with someone who claims to be a scientist, living in the west in the 21st century, and who actually believes this stuff (e.g. the afterlife) then it is just difficult to take them seriously. That makes me vulnerable to accusations of having a closed mind, etc, I know...but I stopped believing in those things (if I ever did) around the same time I stopped believing in Father Christmas, so you'll have to cut me some slack :) And you actually make it worse when you justify your beliefs by saying that they make the Universe a "nicer" place to live in, which is just juvenile (I can imagine even nicer universes, would you like to believe in them instead?). I would stop at your previous statement about not needing to rationalise belief (in fact it's a category error to do so).
- engi_nerd 11y ago
  People need things to comfort them. Parent's believe in an afterlife is obviously a comforting thought for them. I wouldn't call that being juvenile so much as being human.
- xupybd 11y ago
  >and when faced with someone who claims to be a scientist, living in the west in the 21st century, and who actually believes this stuff (e.g. the afterlife) then it is just difficult to take them seriously Is this something you have to do regularly, make judgements on scientists based on their speculations of an afterlife? Wouldn't it be far better to make judgments based on their contribution to their field? Does this mean we should not take Francis S. Collins seriously?
- FussyZeus 11y ago
  I don't know your familiarity with the Bible, but there's nothing in it that tells us to not seek knowledge, there is nothing in it that tells us never to question creation. The way I look at it: If a God did indeed create us, and intended us to be his savage servants for life, he wouldn't have created us with a mind capable of excelling beyond that state. I don't want to get into a huge theological thing, my policy on this is always the same: You do you, I'll do me, and we'll get along fine. If we get to a point where we can find out what the afterlife is, if it exists, then we can re-evaluate beliefs at that point, but I don't think we're anywhere close to that, so until then I'll keep my faith and all I ask is the respect that anyone else would deserve.
- someguydave 11y ago
  Is it actually irrational to believe in something if your evidence is 'I just know it because God told me'?
someguydave 11y ago
As a fellow Lutheran from the Midwest I think you've done a good job in this thread at representing a minority opinion on this forum.

druddha 11y ago

Mocking or looking down on people is generally a poor practice. However, it should not surprise someone in the sciences if they are passed over for job opportunities based on their religious beliefs. Those beliefs may limit your capacity to effectively perform your job.

peterhadlaw 11y ago
Then I wonder what your reaction is to learning that there is a significant portion [citation needed] of doctors / surgeons that either keep or expand their religious fate as they go through incredibly difficult times in their careers. Some of which would otherwise fail to continue.
- druddha 11y ago
  No reaction. That something provides you with comfort does not make it true.
  - peterhadlaw 11y ago
    If you look at the parent of my comment, you'll see that I wasn't referring to if [what the doctors have faith in] is true or not but rather their faith enables (some of) them to do what they would otherwise not be able to do. Which is contrary to the parent's comment stating that having faith would deem you less capable of fulfilling your job.
    - druddha 11y ago
      That was my comment, and I was speaking strictly about sciences (as the previous commenter said he works in a CS department at a university). Even so, your counterpoint still holds no water. Just because many of them turn to faith during difficult times does not mean they necessarily perform their job function at a higher level as a result.
stefantalpalaru 11y ago
> Those beliefs may limit your capacity to effectively perform your job. Sounds like an unsubstantiated belief to me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christians_in_science_and_technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christians_in_science_...