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>most of whom can't even swap a tire for a donut without calling AAA. There's a certain irony here I can't dismiss. You write three paragraphs about being vict

>most of whom can't even swap a tire for a donut without calling AAA. There's a certain irony here I can't dismiss. You write three paragraphs about being victimized by stereotyping Middle America, then end your rant by.... stereotyping everyone on the east coast (or those who sought extended education).

FussyZeus 11y ago
It's less a generalization of everyone who has a degree being incapable of performing that task (I'd imagine a lot would be able to figure it out, it's not complicated) and more the idea that knowledge which is highly useful such as that is viewed as being "beneath" knowledge such as a thorough understanding of the writings of Socrates. The catch there is that knowing Socrates isn't getting you off the side of the road, and that's what I was getting at. I could've explained it better though.
- thieving_magpie 11y ago
  I see what you're saying. I just disagree that isn't a two way street. I'm from the South and can't go home without being made fun of for "doing computers".
  - aaronem 11y ago
    So am I, and I can. It helps, I think, that I earn an excellent living at it, and also that part of "doing computers" for me is solving friends' and family members' IT-support-level problems, even when it's not especially fun to do so. On the other hand, I might just be lucky. Who knows?
  - eric_bullington 11y ago
    > I'm from the South and can't go home without being made fun of for "doing computers". I'm from the South and have never heard of an adult being made fun of for working with computers. And my family on both paternal and maternal sides is very Southern, having been in SC/NC since before the Revolutionary War. I have noticed that some family tease a lot about anything and everything, but this seems to cross regions and countries.
    - thieving_magpie 11y ago
      Neat - well I have. Maybe it's a southern Georgia thing. I also don't "look" like someone that would work as a developer, in their eyes.
    - thieving_magpie 11y ago
      Hopefully the point I was making was apparent that no education level, working class, economic status, or any other classification I'm omitting has a monopoly on deriding others not like them. There's no need to focus on the example I used. To reply, though, this is something I've encountered in Southern Georgia and I'll say that a) it may have to do with my physical appearance and b) it really isn't bothersome or overly mean spirited. I don't get too hung up on anything like that.
  - talmand 11y ago
    I'm from the Deep South, I work with computers, and I've never encountered anyone with that attitude. My minority friends on the other hand...
- RightWingRabble 11y ago
  My grandfather used to say to me "all those books and all you do is eat the pages." He would usually say it after I would overthink something ridiculously simple, like righty tighty lefty loosey. He thought it was good that I went to college, but he would always emphasize that knowing and doing are two different things.
  - tonyarkles 11y ago
    Funny enough, I perpetually use the right-hand-curl rule before tightening or loosening a screw. Point my thumb in the direction I want the part to move, and rotate the tool in whatever direction my fingers point. I get made fun of for it occasionally, but I haven't accidentally tightened something I planned on loosening in a really long time. Thanks electrical engineering and magnetic field/current interactions! You've prevented me from breaking bolts and stripping screws!
- dd36 11y ago
  You had someone be rude to you because you know how to fix a car? As you said, that's a far easier skill to learn than say programming. However, I have never encountered such an attitude and have lived on both coasts. I think people greatly appreciate skilled mechanics, tradesmen, etc. all over the country. The best can usually charge a premium. That's no different on the coasts. I doubt this will be a popular opinion: Frankly, I think belief in the supernatural should be screenable in an employment application. Maybe it doesn't affect how you think about the world and how you think about solutions to problems but it could. Maybe you're prone to believing in unsupported theories because you've trained your brain to do so in your private life? Maybe you press on with an idea when you shouldn't. Maybe that will effect your business decisions? I'm not an atheist. I just think it's an interesting question. I grew up with a lot of Mormons who metaphorically drowned the parts of their brain that were curious about the world. The sad part was that they were required to in order to fit into their community and maintain good familial relations. A lot of them struggled with it and still do. I say it's sad because they could have achieved and contributed a lot more to the world. Now most of them are salesmen, which is a skill they learned on their missions. I think about this often. As humans, our brains look for social signals for shortcuts (read Robert Cialdini). Do people use religious belief as a shortcut? Do they do so subconsciously? I've never asked someone about their religious beliefs in an interview but if they mentioned it, would I subconsciously reach a different conclusion? Would I be less willing to trust that they have good, objective business sense? Would I want someone who believes in the bible literally as an engineer? What about as a salesman? Maybe for marketing? Does it aid creative thinking or impair it? Why would you bring up religion in an interview?
  - rayiner 11y ago
    > Frankly, I think belief in the supernatural should be screenable in an employment application If you apply this fairly, it would exclude a lot of people. For example, I meet a lot of people folks here on HN that believe in "human rights" or "natural rights" that don't arise out of legal documents. But if you cut someone open, you can't find any "natural rights" in there, nor has anyone provided experimental evidence characterizing the physics of "natural rights."
- engi_nerd 11y ago
  I am really amazed that people are choosing to attack how you presented your rant rather than addressing the substance of it.
  - MCRed 11y ago
    Are you really? Sincerely. Because these days, that seems to be the mode of "Debate" that is most popular, alas. I feel like anti-intellectualism has taken hold, such that "Debate" at its best is citing some authority (who usually isn't really an authority, eg: a politician taking a scientific position) and much more commonly engages in ad hominem of the form of attempting to discredit people as a form of argument.
    - engi_nerd 11y ago
      I sincerely am, here, because one of the purposes of discussion here is to talk about ideas for what they are, not for the window-dressing that they're presented with. In the vast majority of places, no, I'm not surprised at all. I agree with what you're saying.
- druddha 11y ago
  Knowing how to change a flat is not "highly useful" knowledge if you have a AAA membership. The reason changing a flat is considered "beneath" knowledge like understanding Socrates ideas is because it takes time and effort to comprehend complex, abstract topics. Whereas changing a tire is an easy skill to learn for any person. In fact, a scholarly person refusing to learn how to change a flat tire is of benefit to society because it frees their mind to contemplate more complicated matters and allows for less the less ambitious or less capable to still have functions in the economy.
  - ghaff 11y ago
    The basic idea that you're expressing isn't entirely unreasonable--not everyone should spend the time to become a competent auto mechanic just because. And it's not unreasonable to just take your car in to get the oil changed. However, you're probably getting downvoted because: 1. AAA isn't always there at your beck and call. 2. The mechanics of changing a flat don't exactly take years of training. 3. Some degree of self-reliance is generally desirable although that degree may be a reasonable topic for debate.
    - druddha 11y ago
      I agree on all 3 points, none of which run contrary to what I said. Downvoting without commenting is cowardly, lazy, or both.
  - xupybd 11y ago
    Yeah, the problem is changing a tire will take you about 15 minutes to learn. Less time than it would take waiting for the AAA. Sure if you don't want to do it, there's nothing wrong with that. But many smart people don't learn simple practical things for the same reason many practical people don't learn intellectual things, they put them in the too hard or too boring basket. You tend to be good at the things you work at, and work at the things you like.
    - druddha 11y ago
      It's an obviously an analogy. In modern society, is knowing how to change a tire more practical than understanding the basis of argument? > You tend to be good at the things you work at, and work at the things you like. You work at those things which bring you utility. It's a subtle difference, but utility includes activities you don't like but which generate income. Ideally, those activities are also beneficial for society. Critical thinking is more highly valued in modern society than is knowing how to change a flat.
- brohee 11y ago
  > the writings of Socrates I see what you did here
  - FussyZeus 11y ago
    I'm glad someone caught it. :)
engi_nerd 11y ago
All of that, and you lock onto something that's clearly a device of rhetoric and not of actual substance?
- thieving_magpie 11y ago
  I disagree that it isn't addressing the substance of the post. I think it speaks to the heart of it. Please feel free to elaborate on why I'm wrong.
  - engi_nerd 11y ago
    I believe the parent has posted and explained exactly what he meant. But here's how I understood it: He was exaggerating a bit for the purpose of making his argument a little more punchy, and phrases like "most of whom can't even swap a tire for a donut without calling AAA" are clearly meant to have an element of humor to them. You took his words at absolute face value without stopping to think that they might be meant as something else.
    - oldmanjay 11y ago
      Hyperbole serves no master. Employ it to bolster a point, and we might use our fancy coastal intelligences to reason that the point is probably weak.
      - engi_nerd 11y ago
        Or, you might laugh? It is funny. Taking this single little point and then using it to systematically reject the whole argument is an example of what the parent was ranting about.
        oldmanjay 11y ago
        Who rejected anything? This is more hyperbole. I stress, that does not strengthen an argument. It is an extra-factual means of convincing people via emotional channels that an argument is stronger than it is.
aaronem 11y ago
Really? Because I don't see OP making that generalization; I see OP talking about "snobs". The one generalizing from "snobs" to the entire East Coast, and/or everyone with a tertiary education, is you. I wonder why.

FussyZeus 11y ago

It's less a generalization of everyone who has a degree being incapable of performing that task (I'd imagine a lot would be able to figure it out, it's not complicated) and more the idea that knowledge which is highly useful such as that is viewed as being "beneath" knowledge such as a thorough understanding of the writings of Socrates. The catch there is that knowing Socrates isn't getting you off the side of the road, and that's what I was getting at. I could've explained it better though.

thieving_magpie 11y ago
I see what you're saying. I just disagree that isn't a two way street. I'm from the South and can't go home without being made fun of for "doing computers".
- aaronem 11y ago
  So am I, and I can. It helps, I think, that I earn an excellent living at it, and also that part of "doing computers" for me is solving friends' and family members' IT-support-level problems, even when it's not especially fun to do so. On the other hand, I might just be lucky. Who knows?
- eric_bullington 11y ago
  > I'm from the South and can't go home without being made fun of for "doing computers". I'm from the South and have never heard of an adult being made fun of for working with computers. And my family on both paternal and maternal sides is very Southern, having been in SC/NC since before the Revolutionary War. I have noticed that some family tease a lot about anything and everything, but this seems to cross regions and countries.
  - thieving_magpie 11y ago
    Neat - well I have. Maybe it's a southern Georgia thing. I also don't "look" like someone that would work as a developer, in their eyes.
  - thieving_magpie 11y ago
    Hopefully the point I was making was apparent that no education level, working class, economic status, or any other classification I'm omitting has a monopoly on deriding others not like them. There's no need to focus on the example I used. To reply, though, this is something I've encountered in Southern Georgia and I'll say that a) it may have to do with my physical appearance and b) it really isn't bothersome or overly mean spirited. I don't get too hung up on anything like that.
- talmand 11y ago
  I'm from the Deep South, I work with computers, and I've never encountered anyone with that attitude. My minority friends on the other hand...
RightWingRabble 11y ago
My grandfather used to say to me "all those books and all you do is eat the pages." He would usually say it after I would overthink something ridiculously simple, like righty tighty lefty loosey. He thought it was good that I went to college, but he would always emphasize that knowing and doing are two different things.
- tonyarkles 11y ago
  Funny enough, I perpetually use the right-hand-curl rule before tightening or loosening a screw. Point my thumb in the direction I want the part to move, and rotate the tool in whatever direction my fingers point. I get made fun of for it occasionally, but I haven't accidentally tightened something I planned on loosening in a really long time. Thanks electrical engineering and magnetic field/current interactions! You've prevented me from breaking bolts and stripping screws!
dd36 11y ago
You had someone be rude to you because you know how to fix a car? As you said, that's a far easier skill to learn than say programming. However, I have never encountered such an attitude and have lived on both coasts. I think people greatly appreciate skilled mechanics, tradesmen, etc. all over the country. The best can usually charge a premium. That's no different on the coasts. I doubt this will be a popular opinion: Frankly, I think belief in the supernatural should be screenable in an employment application. Maybe it doesn't affect how you think about the world and how you think about solutions to problems but it could. Maybe you're prone to believing in unsupported theories because you've trained your brain to do so in your private life? Maybe you press on with an idea when you shouldn't. Maybe that will effect your business decisions? I'm not an atheist. I just think it's an interesting question. I grew up with a lot of Mormons who metaphorically drowned the parts of their brain that were curious about the world. The sad part was that they were required to in order to fit into their community and maintain good familial relations. A lot of them struggled with it and still do. I say it's sad because they could have achieved and contributed a lot more to the world. Now most of them are salesmen, which is a skill they learned on their missions. I think about this often. As humans, our brains look for social signals for shortcuts (read Robert Cialdini). Do people use religious belief as a shortcut? Do they do so subconsciously? I've never asked someone about their religious beliefs in an interview but if they mentioned it, would I subconsciously reach a different conclusion? Would I be less willing to trust that they have good, objective business sense? Would I want someone who believes in the bible literally as an engineer? What about as a salesman? Maybe for marketing? Does it aid creative thinking or impair it? Why would you bring up religion in an interview?
- rayiner 11y ago
  > Frankly, I think belief in the supernatural should be screenable in an employment application If you apply this fairly, it would exclude a lot of people. For example, I meet a lot of people folks here on HN that believe in "human rights" or "natural rights" that don't arise out of legal documents. But if you cut someone open, you can't find any "natural rights" in there, nor has anyone provided experimental evidence characterizing the physics of "natural rights."
engi_nerd 11y ago
I am really amazed that people are choosing to attack how you presented your rant rather than addressing the substance of it.
- MCRed 11y ago
  Are you really? Sincerely. Because these days, that seems to be the mode of "Debate" that is most popular, alas. I feel like anti-intellectualism has taken hold, such that "Debate" at its best is citing some authority (who usually isn't really an authority, eg: a politician taking a scientific position) and much more commonly engages in ad hominem of the form of attempting to discredit people as a form of argument.
  - engi_nerd 11y ago
    I sincerely am, here, because one of the purposes of discussion here is to talk about ideas for what they are, not for the window-dressing that they're presented with. In the vast majority of places, no, I'm not surprised at all. I agree with what you're saying.
druddha 11y ago
Knowing how to change a flat is not "highly useful" knowledge if you have a AAA membership. The reason changing a flat is considered "beneath" knowledge like understanding Socrates ideas is because it takes time and effort to comprehend complex, abstract topics. Whereas changing a tire is an easy skill to learn for any person. In fact, a scholarly person refusing to learn how to change a flat tire is of benefit to society because it frees their mind to contemplate more complicated matters and allows for less the less ambitious or less capable to still have functions in the economy.
- ghaff 11y ago
  The basic idea that you're expressing isn't entirely unreasonable--not everyone should spend the time to become a competent auto mechanic just because. And it's not unreasonable to just take your car in to get the oil changed. However, you're probably getting downvoted because: 1. AAA isn't always there at your beck and call. 2. The mechanics of changing a flat don't exactly take years of training. 3. Some degree of self-reliance is generally desirable although that degree may be a reasonable topic for debate.
  - druddha 11y ago
    I agree on all 3 points, none of which run contrary to what I said. Downvoting without commenting is cowardly, lazy, or both.
- xupybd 11y ago
  Yeah, the problem is changing a tire will take you about 15 minutes to learn. Less time than it would take waiting for the AAA. Sure if you don't want to do it, there's nothing wrong with that. But many smart people don't learn simple practical things for the same reason many practical people don't learn intellectual things, they put them in the too hard or too boring basket. You tend to be good at the things you work at, and work at the things you like.
  - druddha 11y ago
    It's an obviously an analogy. In modern society, is knowing how to change a tire more practical than understanding the basis of argument? > You tend to be good at the things you work at, and work at the things you like. You work at those things which bring you utility. It's a subtle difference, but utility includes activities you don't like but which generate income. Ideally, those activities are also beneficial for society. Critical thinking is more highly valued in modern society than is knowing how to change a flat.
brohee 11y ago
> the writings of Socrates I see what you did here
- FussyZeus 11y ago
  I'm glad someone caught it. :)

engi_nerd 11y ago

All of that, and you lock onto something that's clearly a device of rhetoric and not of actual substance?

thieving_magpie 11y ago
I disagree that it isn't addressing the substance of the post. I think it speaks to the heart of it. Please feel free to elaborate on why I'm wrong.
- engi_nerd 11y ago
  I believe the parent has posted and explained exactly what he meant. But here's how I understood it: He was exaggerating a bit for the purpose of making his argument a little more punchy, and phrases like "most of whom can't even swap a tire for a donut without calling AAA" are clearly meant to have an element of humor to them. You took his words at absolute face value without stopping to think that they might be meant as something else.
  - oldmanjay 11y ago
    Hyperbole serves no master. Employ it to bolster a point, and we might use our fancy coastal intelligences to reason that the point is probably weak.
    - engi_nerd 11y ago
      Or, you might laugh? It is funny. Taking this single little point and then using it to systematically reject the whole argument is an example of what the parent was ranting about.
      - oldmanjay 11y ago
        Who rejected anything? This is more hyperbole. I stress, that does not strengthen an argument. It is an extra-factual means of convincing people via emotional channels that an argument is stronger than it is.

aaronem 11y ago

Really? Because I don't see OP making that generalization; I see OP talking about "snobs". The one generalizing from "snobs" to the entire East Coast, and/or everyone with a tertiary education, is you. I wonder why.