4 ms·

> Facebook is being the asshole that keeps using the wrong pronouns/names/etc. despite being asked not to, and when challenged on it, demands to see ID to "prov

by zeveb 11y ago

> Facebook is being the asshole that keeps using the wrong pronouns/names/etc. despite being asked not to, and when challenged on it, demands to see ID to "prove it". If you tell me to call you Lord Joseph, is it really so wrong for me to ask you for your credentials? If I refer to you as 'him,' not 'His Lordship,' am I really the one in the wrong?

SwellJoe 11y ago
I've mentioned a situation, that many trans folks experience, where someone asks to be called by their preferred gender pronoun and the person they ask refuses to do so. And, I've mentioned that many trans folks find that kind of response hurtful. And, you've made a joke comparing that to someone wanting to be treated like royalty. Do you sincerely believe the two situations are comparable?
- Torgo 11y ago
  "Lil Miss Hot Mess" is a stage name, and I am not obligated to recognize it. I actually find it not comparable at all to compare it to someone's gender-identified pronouns and perfectly applicable to what OP was saying.
  - SwellJoe 11y ago
    The question that raises for me is: Do the outliers make it OK to cause harm to those who aren't so "far out" in their choice of name? In other words, because you don't like the name "Lil Miss Hot Mess" (I assume because it is not as serious as "Joe" or "Torgo", as names go), is it OK to call anyone by whatever name you prefer, and refuse to acknowledge them as anything else? Whether I think "Lil Miss Hot Mess" is a ridiculous name or not doesn't alter the reality that facebook daily "disappears" people's accounts whose names aren't up to their standards. This change in policy gives people a week to protest that disappearance, but it doesn't change facebook's level of control. They still decide who you can be online (at least on facebook). The thing is that I don't know where to draw that line on what is "too ridiculous", and I don't think anyone else really does, either. So, given that names are arbitrary (even when enforcing a "real names" policy, there are people who have ridiculous names), and given that enforcing a real names policy harms countless people, and given that not enforcing real names has very little negative result except to facebook's bottom line (and even that is negligible), I just don't see it as defensible. The argument that it prevents abuse and bullying is shown to be a lie by the fact that this policy has been used, since facebook's inception, to bully people, and facebook has for all that time remained complicit, and even an active participant, in that bullying. You can't claim to want to prevent bullying if you're the one holding the victim down while someone else punches them.
    - Torgo 11y ago
      I care less about the Facebook policy (actually I care approximately zero) than I do about the comparison of drag personas to, for instance, gender pronouns. I acknowledge that some people might use an unorthodox name. Ironically I think that people treat how serious you are supposed to take these things as a binary (serious, not serious) rather than a continuum.
      - SwellJoe 11y ago
        I don't believe it matters what you or I think about the seriousness (or lack thereof) of someone's chosen name and gender. If someone tells me the name they prefer to go by, I'm going to call them that; I don't have to take it "seriously", of course, but I'm not going to call them Frank if they tell me they're the Lady Chablis. It's just a basic show of respect. No one can make you call Lil Miss Hot Mess by her chosen name, but, ethically, I don't think anyone can tell her not to go by that name, and I don't believe it is ethical to demand she "prove" that's the name she wants to go by, either. If she says it's the name she prefers...well, who would know better what she wants?
  - etjossem 11y ago
    It's not a stage name in the show business sense. This is actually what people call them on a day-to-day basis. It is just as "serious" a name as Moon Unit Zappa; you might think it's odd, but it's their name, so deal with it. FB: "Our policy has never been to require everyone on Facebook to use their legal name. The spirit of our policy is that everyone on Facebook uses the authentic name they use in real life. For Sister Roma, that's Sister Roma. For Lil Miss Hot Mess, that's Lil Miss Hot Mess."
  - Rotten194 11y ago
    You're not obligated to do anything. But people are also free to think you're an asshole for not respecting an incredibly basic request. Not using someone's preferred name / gender pronouns is plain and simple being an asshole. Nobody really gives a shit about your opinions on being trans or whatever -- we've literally heard every argument you could possibly make many, many times. Just don't be an asshole so my day isn't ruined and I can pretend your outdated views don't exist.
    - Torgo 11y ago
      Your own community can't agree if drag is trans.
- zeveb 11y ago
  > And, you've made a joke comparing that to someone wanting to be treated like royalty. It's not a joke: it's a serious example. You are not (I assume) nobility in any recognised peerage; a man who believes he is a woman is not in any recognisable sense actually a woman. Or maybe you are actually a peer, or maybe she really is a woman. In which cases yes, I'd like to see proof which outweighs the evidence to the contrary. > And, I've mentioned that many trans folks find that kind of response hurtful. It may be hurtful to the theoretical you-of-the-example to note that you are a commoner; it may be hurtful to a man who believes himself a woman to note that he is a man. But, y'know, you are and he is. It's hurtful to me when folks point out my errors and mistakes, but I can't change reality to match what I think it is or want it to be. > Do you sincerely believe the two situations are comparable? Yes, they are exact analogues from my point of view, for the reason that neither noble titles nor sex are subjective: they are objective reality.
  - SwellJoe 11y ago
    "Yes, they are exact analogues from my point of view, for the reason that neither noble titles nor sex are subjective: they are objective reality." You'll need to back that up with some citations. My understanding of the relevant science, from many angles (biology and psychology, in particular) says otherwise. The science says that sex and gender are much more complex than merely "either/or" and that trying to put a binary onto something that complex isn't useful and potentially even dangerous for those most at risk. And, my personal interactions with people who suffer from gender dysphoria, among other issues, tells me that it causes harm when I refuse to respect their desire to be called by their preferred name and gender. I don't want to cause harm, particularly when it costs me literally nothing to respect my friends' wishes.
  - etjossem 11y ago
    > a man who believes he is a woman is not in any recognisable sense actually a woman. You are talking about someone whose biological sex at birth was male, and whose gender is female. In other words, you're confusing biological characteristics with gender. Gender refers to self-identity, cultural behavior, and presentation. The World Health Organization[1] and the Oxford English Dictionary[2] have accepted this definition. On Facebook, users may fill a freeform gender field (not a dropdown) and select a preferred prounoun. Users are not required to substantiate gender, nor would there be a way to. Notably, Facebook never asks anyone to give medical info about their biological sex. Neither should you. [1] http://apps.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/ http://apps.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/ [2] http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/gender http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_eng...
x1798DE 11y ago
Who is the credentialing agent for your name? Your names are generally the things people call you, the things you respond to and the things you recognize as legitimately referring to yourself. When someone tells to their name, they are not generally trying to convey what their canonical identifier is in some external agency's database is.
- zeveb 11y ago
  > Who is the credentialing agent for your name? Legally, the State, who go so far as to issue official documents indicating one's legal name. In some jurisdictions it is perfectly legal to assume additional names, of course.
  - etjossem 11y ago
    It has never been the policy of Facebook to require the use of your legal name, and for good reason. All they care about is what you are called.
  - x1798DE 11y ago
    >Legally, the State, who go so far as to issue official documents indicating one's legal name. This is a tautology, since a "legal name" essentially means the name the government has for you. They will generally (though not necessarily reliably) provide credentials that a name applies to you. This does not mean that they make the decision about all names that apply to you.
a3_nm 11y ago
> If you tell me to call you Lord Joseph, is it really so wrong for me to ask you for your credentials? If you tell me to call you "Lord Joseph", I'll say sure, and oblige, as I would for "foobar", "zeveb", or any reasonably pronounceable nickname without obviously undesirable connotations. Which kinds of credentials would be relevant for me to accept to call you the way you want to be called? > If I refer to you as 'him,' not 'His Lordship,' am I really the one in the wrong? "His Lordship" would arguably be quite a mouthful... But certainly, for the much less convoluted case of people asking to be called by their favorite single-syllable gender or genderless pronoun, I would think that it would not be courteous to use one that you don't like. How exactly would my perception of your gender be more relevant than your own?
jdietrich 11y ago
When you are introduced to someone, do you demand to see their birth certificate before using their name? Would that behaviour be considered vaguely acceptable in any society? Calling someone by their preferred name is kindergarten-level etiquette. It is your right to break from that simple etiquette, but the rest of us have the right to dismiss you as an oaf.

by zeveb 11y ago

SwellJoe 11y ago

I've mentioned a situation, that many trans folks experience, where someone asks to be called by their preferred gender pronoun and the person they ask refuses to do so. And, I've mentioned that many trans folks find that kind of response hurtful. And, you've made a joke comparing that to someone wanting to be treated like royalty. Do you sincerely believe the two situations are comparable?

Torgo 11y ago
"Lil Miss Hot Mess" is a stage name, and I am not obligated to recognize it. I actually find it not comparable at all to compare it to someone's gender-identified pronouns and perfectly applicable to what OP was saying.
- SwellJoe 11y ago
  The question that raises for me is: Do the outliers make it OK to cause harm to those who aren't so "far out" in their choice of name? In other words, because you don't like the name "Lil Miss Hot Mess" (I assume because it is not as serious as "Joe" or "Torgo", as names go), is it OK to call anyone by whatever name you prefer, and refuse to acknowledge them as anything else? Whether I think "Lil Miss Hot Mess" is a ridiculous name or not doesn't alter the reality that facebook daily "disappears" people's accounts whose names aren't up to their standards. This change in policy gives people a week to protest that disappearance, but it doesn't change facebook's level of control. They still decide who you can be online (at least on facebook). The thing is that I don't know where to draw that line on what is "too ridiculous", and I don't think anyone else really does, either. So, given that names are arbitrary (even when enforcing a "real names" policy, there are people who have ridiculous names), and given that enforcing a real names policy harms countless people, and given that not enforcing real names has very little negative result except to facebook's bottom line (and even that is negligible), I just don't see it as defensible. The argument that it prevents abuse and bullying is shown to be a lie by the fact that this policy has been used, since facebook's inception, to bully people, and facebook has for all that time remained complicit, and even an active participant, in that bullying. You can't claim to want to prevent bullying if you're the one holding the victim down while someone else punches them.
  - Torgo 11y ago
    I care less about the Facebook policy (actually I care approximately zero) than I do about the comparison of drag personas to, for instance, gender pronouns. I acknowledge that some people might use an unorthodox name. Ironically I think that people treat how serious you are supposed to take these things as a binary (serious, not serious) rather than a continuum.
    - SwellJoe 11y ago
      I don't believe it matters what you or I think about the seriousness (or lack thereof) of someone's chosen name and gender. If someone tells me the name they prefer to go by, I'm going to call them that; I don't have to take it "seriously", of course, but I'm not going to call them Frank if they tell me they're the Lady Chablis. It's just a basic show of respect. No one can make you call Lil Miss Hot Mess by her chosen name, but, ethically, I don't think anyone can tell her not to go by that name, and I don't believe it is ethical to demand she "prove" that's the name she wants to go by, either. If she says it's the name she prefers...well, who would know better what she wants?
- etjossem 11y ago
  It's not a stage name in the show business sense. This is actually what people call them on a day-to-day basis. It is just as "serious" a name as Moon Unit Zappa; you might think it's odd, but it's their name, so deal with it. FB: "Our policy has never been to require everyone on Facebook to use their legal name. The spirit of our policy is that everyone on Facebook uses the authentic name they use in real life. For Sister Roma, that's Sister Roma. For Lil Miss Hot Mess, that's Lil Miss Hot Mess."
- Rotten194 11y ago
  You're not obligated to do anything. But people are also free to think you're an asshole for not respecting an incredibly basic request. Not using someone's preferred name / gender pronouns is plain and simple being an asshole. Nobody really gives a shit about your opinions on being trans or whatever -- we've literally heard every argument you could possibly make many, many times. Just don't be an asshole so my day isn't ruined and I can pretend your outdated views don't exist.
  - Torgo 11y ago
    Your own community can't agree if drag is trans.
zeveb 11y ago
> And, you've made a joke comparing that to someone wanting to be treated like royalty. It's not a joke: it's a serious example. You are not (I assume) nobility in any recognised peerage; a man who believes he is a woman is not in any recognisable sense actually a woman. Or maybe you are actually a peer, or maybe she really is a woman. In which cases yes, I'd like to see proof which outweighs the evidence to the contrary. > And, I've mentioned that many trans folks find that kind of response hurtful. It may be hurtful to the theoretical you-of-the-example to note that you are a commoner; it may be hurtful to a man who believes himself a woman to note that he is a man. But, y'know, you are and he is. It's hurtful to me when folks point out my errors and mistakes, but I can't change reality to match what I think it is or want it to be. > Do you sincerely believe the two situations are comparable? Yes, they are exact analogues from my point of view, for the reason that neither noble titles nor sex are subjective: they are objective reality.
- SwellJoe 11y ago
  "Yes, they are exact analogues from my point of view, for the reason that neither noble titles nor sex are subjective: they are objective reality." You'll need to back that up with some citations. My understanding of the relevant science, from many angles (biology and psychology, in particular) says otherwise. The science says that sex and gender are much more complex than merely "either/or" and that trying to put a binary onto something that complex isn't useful and potentially even dangerous for those most at risk. And, my personal interactions with people who suffer from gender dysphoria, among other issues, tells me that it causes harm when I refuse to respect their desire to be called by their preferred name and gender. I don't want to cause harm, particularly when it costs me literally nothing to respect my friends' wishes.
- etjossem 11y ago
  > a man who believes he is a woman is not in any recognisable sense actually a woman. You are talking about someone whose biological sex at birth was male, and whose gender is female. In other words, you're confusing biological characteristics with gender. Gender refers to self-identity, cultural behavior, and presentation. The World Health Organization[1] and the Oxford English Dictionary[2] have accepted this definition. On Facebook, users may fill a freeform gender field (not a dropdown) and select a preferred prounoun. Users are not required to substantiate gender, nor would there be a way to. Notably, Facebook never asks anyone to give medical info about their biological sex. Neither should you. [1] http://apps.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/ http://apps.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/ [2] http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/gender http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_eng...

x1798DE 11y ago

Who is the credentialing agent for your name? Your names are generally the things people call you, the things you respond to and the things you recognize as legitimately referring to yourself. When someone tells to their name, they are not generally trying to convey what their canonical identifier is in some external agency's database is.

zeveb 11y ago
> Who is the credentialing agent for your name? Legally, the State, who go so far as to issue official documents indicating one's legal name. In some jurisdictions it is perfectly legal to assume additional names, of course.
- etjossem 11y ago
  It has never been the policy of Facebook to require the use of your legal name, and for good reason. All they care about is what you are called.
- x1798DE 11y ago
  >Legally, the State, who go so far as to issue official documents indicating one's legal name. This is a tautology, since a "legal name" essentially means the name the government has for you. They will generally (though not necessarily reliably) provide credentials that a name applies to you. This does not mean that they make the decision about all names that apply to you.

a3_nm 11y ago

> If you tell me to call you Lord Joseph, is it really so wrong for me to ask you for your credentials? If you tell me to call you "Lord Joseph", I'll say sure, and oblige, as I would for "foobar", "zeveb", or any reasonably pronounceable nickname without obviously undesirable connotations. Which kinds of credentials would be relevant for me to accept to call you the way you want to be called? > If I refer to you as 'him,' not 'His Lordship,' am I really the one in the wrong? "His Lordship" would arguably be quite a mouthful... But certainly, for the much less convoluted case of people asking to be called by their favorite single-syllable gender or genderless pronoun, I would think that it would not be courteous to use one that you don't like. How exactly would my perception of your gender be more relevant than your own?

jdietrich 11y ago

When you are introduced to someone, do you demand to see their birth certificate before using their name? Would that behaviour be considered vaguely acceptable in any society? Calling someone by their preferred name is kindergarten-level etiquette. It is your right to break from that simple etiquette, but the rest of us have the right to dismiss you as an oaf.