6 ms·

I don't think this would accomplish anything vis-a-vis brand protection, since consumers have been conditioned to just click "OK" at every dialog box that doesn

I don't think this would accomplish anything vis-a-vis brand protection, since consumers have been conditioned to just click "OK" at every dialog box that doesn't look like it will explode a mine. Six months down the line, nobody would remember the warning -- they'd still get mad at Philips when a third-party bulb breaks.

TeMPOraL 11y ago
> they'd still get mad at Philips when a third-party bulb breaks. Would they? Wouldn't they blame their bulb first? It's like complaining to your PC manufacturer that a program you downloaded doesn't work. Most people would blame the program and look for another one. I'm sure there are some who have it backwards, and they probably will be calling support, but I can't imagine there's enough of them for a company to actually care about damage to the brand those people may be doing.
- culturestate 11y ago
  > It's like complaining to your PC manufacturer that a program you downloaded doesn't work. This happens far, far more often than you would think. That line from Men in Black -- "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky animals." -- rings more true every time I work with a client who handles front-line tech support. I do have to wonder how much of a difference it would make right now, though. Hue is presumably still in the early adopter stage (especially if we're talking about people who are adding non-Hue Zigbee devices to the setup), where you'd hope this kind of confusion would be less common. Edit: this is one of the primary reasons Apple exercises so much control over third party integration on iOS. They get the blame for everything.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    My SO worked way too long answering customer phone calls; I had a healthy fit of horror stories every week. But what I learned from them is that it's all selection bias - savvy, smart customers generally don't call. They solve things themselves, they find solutions themselves, they trust the established procedures (e.g. of returning the merchandise), but above all, they don't call with stupid requests or to bitch about how bad the company is. They only call if you fucked up big. What remains is a mix of "dumb, panicky animals" and people for whom calling is the best option (they may be in a hurry; or for many older people, phone call is the method they're used to and one they trust). It's something you have to deal with, it's for them that you have support in the first place. But for a company like Philips, I can't imagine those support calls make any difference brand-wise. Most companies I know could drop their private-customer help lines altogether, having them respond with busy tone all the time, and nobody would likely notice.
- nkrisc 11y ago
  I think you're overestimating the technical savvy of most people.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    From my observation, people are generally smart enough that if they bought expensive product A that works and is of a well-known brand, and then later they bought some unknown noname-brand cheap product B which doesn't wok with A, they'll blame the product B, not product A.
    - kbutler 11y ago
      You are asserting that the major brand doesn't need to defend its brand image because people have a strong recognition of the brand image...
      - TeMPOraL 11y ago
        I'm asserting that avoiding support calls by the minority who can't reason about technology at all is not worth the tarnishing of the brand Philips did to itself when trying to get rid of those calls.
  - izacus 11y ago
    I think you're underestimating the technical savvy of most people. The tech support calls are pretty much a minority of users for a product.
    - nkrisc 11y ago
      Tech support calls perhaps, but there's more that can damage a brand's reputation than that. I'm not for blocking third party hardware as they originally did, but I understand their position as a company as well. However since I can't back up my original claim I'll leave it at that.
- dtech 11y ago
  If Windows crashes because of an badly coded third-party driver, do you think people will blame Windows or the driver manufacturer? Most people will not internalize the workings of the system and just blame the system as a whole, which in this case has the brand name Philips on it. I think it's a smart move and reasonable compromise, similar to Microsofts WHQL program.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    Badly coded driver is a special case, because it often crashes the system in a way seemingly unrelated to the installation itself (or software it came with), showing you a nasty blue screen (which is known generally as "the Windows problem"). I know most people get confused about cases like these (and had more than enough experience with fixing them for such people). But I used a different analogy on purpose. You bought a Hue Bridge - presumably, with at least one Hue bulb (do they even sell Bridges separately?). So you know it works. Then you buy a noname cheap bulb, plug it in, and it - the cheap bulb - doesn't work. The Bridge still works, the Hue bulb also works, it's just the new, different one that doesn't. I find it hard to believe there are many people who can't connect the dots.
    - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
      >I find it hard to believe there are many people who can't connect the dots. It doesn't surprise me at all. The key to remember is that people are not rational creatures. They work off of emotions and then apply logic to try to rationalize their emotions.
    - CodeCube 11y ago
      > I find it hard to believe there are many people who can't connect the dots. lol, bro ... have you worked with humans like, ever?
    - JoBrad 11y ago
      Have you seen any Linux forum/fan ever, who talks about Windows and BSOD?
    - 11y ago
- golergka 11y ago
  > It's like complaining to your PC manufacturer that a program you downloaded doesn't work. Most people would blame the program and look for another one. Have you met "most people"? They would blame PC manufacturer indeed. Just remember Vista and how suddenly all kinds of software stopped working. Surprise: most of the time, this software used undocumented features and sometimes even bugs present in previous Windows systems.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    I did. I spent a lot of time fixing "computer stuff" for those people. I remember Vista (ironically, I'm probably the only person I know who didn't have a problem with it and, besides the slow file copying, geneally liked it) - but there, in a way, some blame towards MS was justified. They were releasing a next iteration of their operating system to the already mature software market that's built on interoperability. Microsoft itself had a strong tradition of caring about backward compatibility. With Vista, they failed to provide an OS compatibile with existing application ecosystem, even if it's third party developers who didn't follow the specs. Here, on the other hand, the "bulb" ecosystem is only starting, and Hue is the reference platform.
    - emp_zealoth 11y ago
      It's about time Windows actually stops dragging the concrete boots around (riddiculous backwards compatibility) - it's infuriating how broken stuff in Windows is, and some of the brokeness has been around for YEARS. Just do an XP fork for VM to run all the legacy stuff on and start fixing stuff already, damn!
      - golergka 11y ago
        > Just do an XP fork for VM to run all the legacy stuff on and start fixing stuff already, damn! Oh yeah. I can just see "most people" powering up VMs to run their outdated broken software that they depend on. Why I'm sarcastic? Because the situation is completely broken, there's no right solution. All that's left is to ridicule all sides of the argument, because everyone who thinks that there is a way to make it right is wrong.
- fastball 11y ago
  Here is the scenario I'm imagining: You are a typical consumer. You buy a HUE system because it has the best reviews. Then you realize you need lightbulbs as well. You go on amazon, look at your options. You can get the Phillips ones, but they're too expensive, so you buy the other ones. You pair the bulbs. It's complicated, but you just follow a guide on the internet word-for-word to get through it. A few months later, your system starts acting wonky. Regardless of what's actually causing the problem, the reality is that you now have to go to the trouble of figuring out what is wrong with your system and then fixing it. Your experience with the Phillips Hue has been soured.
  - simoncion 11y ago
    So, given that it seems that neither you nor I have used these things, lemmy float you a hypothetical: > A few months later, your system starts acting wonky. What if "your system starts acting wonky" means "Only the non-Phillips bulbs stop behaving correctly."? Growing up, I knew of many, many people who would only stick with brand-name things because of quality or compatibility concerns. I would expect that many affected users would be able to recognize that their non-Phillips bulbs were acting up and their Phillips bulbs were not.
- pc86 11y ago
  > It's like complaining to your PC manufacturer that a program you downloaded doesn't work. If I had a dime for every time I heard someone say "This _____ing computer!" every time a program crashed...
  - dTal 11y ago
    Reminds me of the joke: "If Bill Gates had a nickel for every time Windows crashed... wait a second, he does!"
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  >Would they? Wouldn't they blame their bulb first? Considering how many people get mad at individuals who are named Isis, as if they have any relation to the IS, I wouldn't doubt some of them blaming Philips.
- jads 11y ago
  I've worked in tech support for many years, and the vast majority of people would blame the PC manufacturer or the operating system for the problems. I spent many years on the Genius Bar (back in the PowerPC and early Intel days) and, in almost, every interaction, the device was to blame - as far as the customer was concerned. In some cases, they were right, in others it was due to outdated software, buggy third-party drivers or just something they bought that was not Mac compatible. But as far as the customer was concerned, it didn't work so therefore it was a problem with their computer. What has to be remembered is that the types of people who read Hacker News would understand, in more detail, what might be causing the issue and know troubleshooting is all part of the process. I bet printer companies get many calls a day from people who bought third-party cartridges (sometimes without realising) and complaining that their stupid printer isn't working and that it must be the printer's fault. The vast majority of consumers who would walk into an Apple Store or Best Buy to purchase something like this, they just think of it as one big ecosystem. If it doesn't work with a bulb they bought off the internet, they will simply assume the product, as a whole, is terrible.
  - gmac 11y ago
    On the printer point, I once bought a 3rd-party cartridge for a Dell laser printer that not only didn't work but actually broke the printer (it stopped recognising all cartridges in that slot). The first question they asked on the phone was whether I'd used a 3rd-party cartridge. I said yes. The second question was where I'd like the free replacement printer delivered (now with added WiFi, and a full set of cartridges). Painful for Dell, but I'll buy from them again.
    - ars 11y ago
      Your post makes we wonder if the printer broke on purpose with that 3rd party cartridge, and that's why they sent you a new one.
  - hrktb 11y ago
    It's true, but wouldn't you receive extraordinary amount of misplaced calls anyway? I remember discussing with a website support guy who would get calls about printers not working, screen flickering and claims about some other unrelated websites that he didn't even know existed. There is of course tweaks that can be made to a product to reduce the amount of support calls, but misplaced blame should be par for the course whatever you do.
- Agathos 11y ago
  >Would they? Yes. >Wouldn't they blame their bulb first? No. >It's like complaining to your PC manufacturer that a program you downloaded doesn't work. Yes, and people do that all the time. >Most people would blame the program and look for another one. Bro, do you even tech support?
- jakobegger 11y ago
  People install all kinds of crap on their computer, forget about it, and later on don't make the connection that the outdated kernel extension they installed is crashing their machine. (I speak from experience. I was able to track a surprising number of bug reports in my apps to internet filters, kernel extensions, etc. It's so common that it's the one of the first questions I ask customers when they report a bug. And it's why sandobexed apps are so successful -- all of the sudden you can install apps without worrying that they'll break your computer)
- wnevets 11y ago
  > It's like complaining to your PC manufacturer that a program you downloaded doesn't work. Most people would blame the program and look for another one. I gotta disagree. I tend to find "normal" people will blame the manufacturer or microsoft whenever anything goes wrong regardless of the actual cause.
brudgers 11y ago
The proposed text sends the wrong message at the wrong time. It's in the way when someone just wants to turn on a light but the bulb was bad. Instead, why not offer a helpful and fair priced mechanism for selling bulbs when one needs replacement? If the company gets a cut of the sale, it doesn't even matter very much what brand is chosen.
orblivion 11y ago
I'm not sure what the interface looks like, but if it's a GUI with icons representing each bulb, and users see it every day or at least any time they want to troubleshoot, they could put a little yellow warning mini-icon inside each non-hue and non-friend bulb icon. It could have a tooltip or something with the "learn more" that reminds the user.
izacus 11y ago
They could just add a settings option "Enable display of 3rd party lights." Non tech minority is thus protected inside the walled garden from the big bad world out there by default while tech savvy users can still use their technology to full extent. We really need to stop compromising our tech just because some loud minority refuses to understand how things work.
mdip 11y ago
they'd still get mad at Philips when a third-party bulb breaks I don't disagree with you -- a subset of customers are going to be angry regardless of warnings, they only go so far. But the issue at hand is how best to deal with the problem they have publicly stated was the reason for this decision: Some subset of third-party bulbs do not work ideally in their ecosystem. Option #1 was to warn customers of this problem and let them decide. There are several other options that were available to them. The farthest down that list, and worst option they had was to disable the bulbs. I would expect that last option to be used only for bulbs that caused fires or other safety issues. That wasn't the case (or I would have expected them to have stated that directly since it would have been something a lot of people would have understood). I don't think Philips realized how major of a feature this is, particularly to early adopters.
jasonkostempski 11y ago
They could make the dialog look like it will explode a mine. I'm not sure if the software can know when something isn't working but if it does and the last know bulb was a third-party bulb it could then remind you about it.
bdavisx 11y ago
If the software remembered that there was an off-brand bulb in the socket that went out, it could do a nicely worded "I told you so" to remind the consumer. The hub (I'm assuming this system has a hub or something) could keep track of the # of hours the bulbs have been in use, and report that the off-brand bulb only lasted 1/2x as long. Of course, if the off-brand bulbs were lasting 2x longer, then perhaps the hub should just keep it's mouth shut... :)

TeMPOraL 11y ago

> they'd still get mad at Philips when a third-party bulb breaks. Would they? Wouldn't they blame their bulb first? It's like complaining to your PC manufacturer that a program you downloaded doesn't work. Most people would blame the program and look for another one. I'm sure there are some who have it backwards, and they probably will be calling support, but I can't imagine there's enough of them for a company to actually care about damage to the brand those people may be doing.

culturestate 11y ago
> It's like complaining to your PC manufacturer that a program you downloaded doesn't work. This happens far, far more often than you would think. That line from Men in Black -- "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky animals." -- rings more true every time I work with a client who handles front-line tech support. I do have to wonder how much of a difference it would make right now, though. Hue is presumably still in the early adopter stage (especially if we're talking about people who are adding non-Hue Zigbee devices to the setup), where you'd hope this kind of confusion would be less common. Edit: this is one of the primary reasons Apple exercises so much control over third party integration on iOS. They get the blame for everything.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  My SO worked way too long answering customer phone calls; I had a healthy fit of horror stories every week. But what I learned from them is that it's all selection bias - savvy, smart customers generally don't call. They solve things themselves, they find solutions themselves, they trust the established procedures (e.g. of returning the merchandise), but above all, they don't call with stupid requests or to bitch about how bad the company is. They only call if you fucked up big. What remains is a mix of "dumb, panicky animals" and people for whom calling is the best option (they may be in a hurry; or for many older people, phone call is the method they're used to and one they trust). It's something you have to deal with, it's for them that you have support in the first place. But for a company like Philips, I can't imagine those support calls make any difference brand-wise. Most companies I know could drop their private-customer help lines altogether, having them respond with busy tone all the time, and nobody would likely notice.
nkrisc 11y ago
I think you're overestimating the technical savvy of most people.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  From my observation, people are generally smart enough that if they bought expensive product A that works and is of a well-known brand, and then later they bought some unknown noname-brand cheap product B which doesn't wok with A, they'll blame the product B, not product A.
  - kbutler 11y ago
    You are asserting that the major brand doesn't need to defend its brand image because people have a strong recognition of the brand image...
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      I'm asserting that avoiding support calls by the minority who can't reason about technology at all is not worth the tarnishing of the brand Philips did to itself when trying to get rid of those calls.
- izacus 11y ago
  I think you're underestimating the technical savvy of most people. The tech support calls are pretty much a minority of users for a product.
  - nkrisc 11y ago
    Tech support calls perhaps, but there's more that can damage a brand's reputation than that. I'm not for blocking third party hardware as they originally did, but I understand their position as a company as well. However since I can't back up my original claim I'll leave it at that.
dtech 11y ago
If Windows crashes because of an badly coded third-party driver, do you think people will blame Windows or the driver manufacturer? Most people will not internalize the workings of the system and just blame the system as a whole, which in this case has the brand name Philips on it. I think it's a smart move and reasonable compromise, similar to Microsofts WHQL program.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  Badly coded driver is a special case, because it often crashes the system in a way seemingly unrelated to the installation itself (or software it came with), showing you a nasty blue screen (which is known generally as "the Windows problem"). I know most people get confused about cases like these (and had more than enough experience with fixing them for such people). But I used a different analogy on purpose. You bought a Hue Bridge - presumably, with at least one Hue bulb (do they even sell Bridges separately?). So you know it works. Then you buy a noname cheap bulb, plug it in, and it - the cheap bulb - doesn't work. The Bridge still works, the Hue bulb also works, it's just the new, different one that doesn't. I find it hard to believe there are many people who can't connect the dots.
  - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
    >I find it hard to believe there are many people who can't connect the dots. It doesn't surprise me at all. The key to remember is that people are not rational creatures. They work off of emotions and then apply logic to try to rationalize their emotions.
  - CodeCube 11y ago
    > I find it hard to believe there are many people who can't connect the dots. lol, bro ... have you worked with humans like, ever?
  - JoBrad 11y ago
    Have you seen any Linux forum/fan ever, who talks about Windows and BSOD?
  - 11y ago
golergka 11y ago
> It's like complaining to your PC manufacturer that a program you downloaded doesn't work. Most people would blame the program and look for another one. Have you met "most people"? They would blame PC manufacturer indeed. Just remember Vista and how suddenly all kinds of software stopped working. Surprise: most of the time, this software used undocumented features and sometimes even bugs present in previous Windows systems.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  I did. I spent a lot of time fixing "computer stuff" for those people. I remember Vista (ironically, I'm probably the only person I know who didn't have a problem with it and, besides the slow file copying, geneally liked it) - but there, in a way, some blame towards MS was justified. They were releasing a next iteration of their operating system to the already mature software market that's built on interoperability. Microsoft itself had a strong tradition of caring about backward compatibility. With Vista, they failed to provide an OS compatibile with existing application ecosystem, even if it's third party developers who didn't follow the specs. Here, on the other hand, the "bulb" ecosystem is only starting, and Hue is the reference platform.
  - emp_zealoth 11y ago
    It's about time Windows actually stops dragging the concrete boots around (riddiculous backwards compatibility) - it's infuriating how broken stuff in Windows is, and some of the brokeness has been around for YEARS. Just do an XP fork for VM to run all the legacy stuff on and start fixing stuff already, damn!
    - golergka 11y ago
      > Just do an XP fork for VM to run all the legacy stuff on and start fixing stuff already, damn! Oh yeah. I can just see "most people" powering up VMs to run their outdated broken software that they depend on. Why I'm sarcastic? Because the situation is completely broken, there's no right solution. All that's left is to ridicule all sides of the argument, because everyone who thinks that there is a way to make it right is wrong.
fastball 11y ago
Here is the scenario I'm imagining: You are a typical consumer. You buy a HUE system because it has the best reviews. Then you realize you need lightbulbs as well. You go on amazon, look at your options. You can get the Phillips ones, but they're too expensive, so you buy the other ones. You pair the bulbs. It's complicated, but you just follow a guide on the internet word-for-word to get through it. A few months later, your system starts acting wonky. Regardless of what's actually causing the problem, the reality is that you now have to go to the trouble of figuring out what is wrong with your system and then fixing it. Your experience with the Phillips Hue has been soured.
- simoncion 11y ago
  So, given that it seems that neither you nor I have used these things, lemmy float you a hypothetical: > A few months later, your system starts acting wonky. What if "your system starts acting wonky" means "Only the non-Phillips bulbs stop behaving correctly."? Growing up, I knew of many, many people who would only stick with brand-name things because of quality or compatibility concerns. I would expect that many affected users would be able to recognize that their non-Phillips bulbs were acting up and their Phillips bulbs were not.
pc86 11y ago
> It's like complaining to your PC manufacturer that a program you downloaded doesn't work. If I had a dime for every time I heard someone say "This _____ing computer!" every time a program crashed...
- dTal 11y ago
  Reminds me of the joke: "If Bill Gates had a nickel for every time Windows crashed... wait a second, he does!"
Lawtonfogle 11y ago
>Would they? Wouldn't they blame their bulb first? Considering how many people get mad at individuals who are named Isis, as if they have any relation to the IS, I wouldn't doubt some of them blaming Philips.
jads 11y ago
I've worked in tech support for many years, and the vast majority of people would blame the PC manufacturer or the operating system for the problems. I spent many years on the Genius Bar (back in the PowerPC and early Intel days) and, in almost, every interaction, the device was to blame - as far as the customer was concerned. In some cases, they were right, in others it was due to outdated software, buggy third-party drivers or just something they bought that was not Mac compatible. But as far as the customer was concerned, it didn't work so therefore it was a problem with their computer. What has to be remembered is that the types of people who read Hacker News would understand, in more detail, what might be causing the issue and know troubleshooting is all part of the process. I bet printer companies get many calls a day from people who bought third-party cartridges (sometimes without realising) and complaining that their stupid printer isn't working and that it must be the printer's fault. The vast majority of consumers who would walk into an Apple Store or Best Buy to purchase something like this, they just think of it as one big ecosystem. If it doesn't work with a bulb they bought off the internet, they will simply assume the product, as a whole, is terrible.
- gmac 11y ago
  On the printer point, I once bought a 3rd-party cartridge for a Dell laser printer that not only didn't work but actually broke the printer (it stopped recognising all cartridges in that slot). The first question they asked on the phone was whether I'd used a 3rd-party cartridge. I said yes. The second question was where I'd like the free replacement printer delivered (now with added WiFi, and a full set of cartridges). Painful for Dell, but I'll buy from them again.
  - ars 11y ago
    Your post makes we wonder if the printer broke on purpose with that 3rd party cartridge, and that's why they sent you a new one.
- hrktb 11y ago
  It's true, but wouldn't you receive extraordinary amount of misplaced calls anyway? I remember discussing with a website support guy who would get calls about printers not working, screen flickering and claims about some other unrelated websites that he didn't even know existed. There is of course tweaks that can be made to a product to reduce the amount of support calls, but misplaced blame should be par for the course whatever you do.
Agathos 11y ago
>Would they? Yes. >Wouldn't they blame their bulb first? No. >It's like complaining to your PC manufacturer that a program you downloaded doesn't work. Yes, and people do that all the time. >Most people would blame the program and look for another one. Bro, do you even tech support?
jakobegger 11y ago
People install all kinds of crap on their computer, forget about it, and later on don't make the connection that the outdated kernel extension they installed is crashing their machine. (I speak from experience. I was able to track a surprising number of bug reports in my apps to internet filters, kernel extensions, etc. It's so common that it's the one of the first questions I ask customers when they report a bug. And it's why sandobexed apps are so successful -- all of the sudden you can install apps without worrying that they'll break your computer)
wnevets 11y ago
> It's like complaining to your PC manufacturer that a program you downloaded doesn't work. Most people would blame the program and look for another one. I gotta disagree. I tend to find "normal" people will blame the manufacturer or microsoft whenever anything goes wrong regardless of the actual cause.

brudgers 11y ago

The proposed text sends the wrong message at the wrong time. It's in the way when someone just wants to turn on a light but the bulb was bad. Instead, why not offer a helpful and fair priced mechanism for selling bulbs when one needs replacement? If the company gets a cut of the sale, it doesn't even matter very much what brand is chosen.

orblivion 11y ago

I'm not sure what the interface looks like, but if it's a GUI with icons representing each bulb, and users see it every day or at least any time they want to troubleshoot, they could put a little yellow warning mini-icon inside each non-hue and non-friend bulb icon. It could have a tooltip or something with the "learn more" that reminds the user.

izacus 11y ago

They could just add a settings option "Enable display of 3rd party lights." Non tech minority is thus protected inside the walled garden from the big bad world out there by default while tech savvy users can still use their technology to full extent. We really need to stop compromising our tech just because some loud minority refuses to understand how things work.

mdip 11y ago

they'd still get mad at Philips when a third-party bulb breaks I don't disagree with you -- a subset of customers are going to be angry regardless of warnings, they only go so far. But the issue at hand is how best to deal with the problem they have publicly stated was the reason for this decision: Some subset of third-party bulbs do not work ideally in their ecosystem. Option #1 was to warn customers of this problem and let them decide. There are several other options that were available to them. The farthest down that list, and worst option they had was to disable the bulbs. I would expect that last option to be used only for bulbs that caused fires or other safety issues. That wasn't the case (or I would have expected them to have stated that directly since it would have been something a lot of people would have understood). I don't think Philips realized how major of a feature this is, particularly to early adopters.

jasonkostempski 11y ago

They could make the dialog look like it will explode a mine. I'm not sure if the software can know when something isn't working but if it does and the last know bulb was a third-party bulb it could then remind you about it.

bdavisx 11y ago

If the software remembered that there was an off-brand bulb in the socket that went out, it could do a nicely worded "I told you so" to remind the consumer. The hub (I'm assuming this system has a hub or something) could keep track of the # of hours the bulbs have been in use, and report that the off-brand bulb only lasted 1/2x as long. Of course, if the off-brand bulbs were lasting 2x longer, then perhaps the hub should just keep it's mouth shut... :)