5 ms·

No, that's way too deep to be correct. Piracy is just an externality caused by an out-of-date copyright law that doesn't take computers into account. People "s

No, that's way too deep to be correct. Piracy is just an externality caused by an out-of-date copyright law that doesn't take computers into account. People "steal" the content because they want it, it's easy, and there are no consequences (regardless of what the MPAA would have you believe). It seems to be a big issue right now because there is an industry built around the old copyright system. Eventually, those companies will perish or transmogrify into something useful, and people won't even talk about piracy.

thasmin 17y ago
People are willing to pay for creative work. The copyright holder should realize that rampant "theft" would indicate that their price is too high, and they should lower the price or create higher value work that people value at their desired price. Copyright law may be outdated in that copyright holders are able to shout "piracy" instead of obeying the laws of economics, but I don't believe it is the main problem.
- jacoblyles 17y ago
  >"The copyright holder should realize that rampant "theft" would indicate that their price is too high, and they should lower the price or create higher value work that people value at their desired price." No, I think you're wrong. I think most pirates would continue to pirate media, even if the author increased the value of the media. They just take the extra consumer surplus and enjoy it.
  - thasmin 17y ago
    Those pirates perceive the work to have no value. Possible reasons include that the pirate has no money, doesn't expect to use the work for long, or doesn't think they'll enjoy the work very much. The copyright holder loses no money when these people pirate their work and should not complain when they do so. It's difficult to recognize why a person is pirating. For all I know, copyright holders have priced their works correctly and are complaining about people like this.
- anamax 17y ago
  > The copyright holder should realize that rampant "theft" would indicate that their price is too high, and they should lower the price or create higher value work that people value at their desired price. And if the copyright holder doesn't realize or doesn't lower her price, then what?
  - thasmin 17y ago
    Then the copyright holder's work get pirated and they don't get compensated.
    - robryan 17y ago
      I don't see how this differs from a physical good in this way, say I don't like your price so I'm just going to take it can be applied to anything. I think if piracy was completely stamped out people may be willing to pay a price point that they previously wouldn't have.
      - thasmin 17y ago
        Physical goods have a higher perceived value because you can touch and resell it. PC games are on their way to essentially ending piracy with services like Steam. Some people may be willing to pay a higher price point, but games at discounted prices are still tremendously popular.
patio11 17y ago
people won't even talk about piracy No, producers will move to platforms where it is difficult to impossible. Care to guess how many people have pirated the SaaS version of Bingo Card Creator versus how many have pirated the downloaded version? I am not the only person to have done the math here. Look at the sales of, say, MW2 on consoles (where piracy is hard) versus PCs (where piracy is trivial). Look at the PC games which actually sell, where World Of Please Pirate This Shiny Flat Paperweight is probably, what, 4 of the top 20 SKUs at any given time. There used to be a thriving PC games market. It has, predictably, shrunk to those sectors where it is actually profitable, avoiding sectors where 90% of the "customers" steal the product. Every time I hear the online crowd whinging about nickle-and-dime models like microtransactions, and not being able to "own" the software they planned on stealing, I have a brief moment of that very hard to spell German word.
- moe 17y ago
  producers will move to platforms where it is difficult to impossible. That works only for software, not for media.
  - mikedouglas 17y ago
    Avatar was shot in 3D for more than purely artistic motives.
    - moe 17y ago
      Well, and? The big screen experience has always been different to what you could get at home. That apparently didn't stop people from watching pirated hollywood content on their small tubes. Likewise 3d screens will dripple into homes the same way radios and tv sets have.
      - dkersten 17y ago
        3D capable TVs are already available. Its just a matter of them becoming mainstream.
- 17y ago
mikedouglas 17y ago
What changes to copyright law would decrease piracy, yet still incentive content creation? I'm genuinely interested if anyone here has any ideas; it seems like a very difficult problem.
- thwarted 17y ago
  I think first we must ask if content creation truly needs to incentived. That content would go uncreated, and that we'd somehow lose out on content that needs to be incentived in order to be created, and that said content is somehow more valuable than content that doesn't need an incentive to be created, seems like a pretty big assumption.
  - jacoblyles 17y ago
    Pirates go after the multi-million dollar Hollywood blockbusters moreso than art school film projects. Revealed preferences seem to suggest that people often prefer media which has a non-trivial cost of production. Pirates dig Avatar, too. And there will be no Avatar when they can no longer charge for it.
    - actf 17y ago
      I don't I buy that argument without data to back it up. I'd hypothesize that the amount of piracy a title gets is directly proportional to its popularity. Sure with an indie title you have fans that are more sympathetic to the producer, but with mass market titles you have the entire mass-market demographic. Do you really think that the number of people in the mass-market who are too lazy, dumb, or otherwise choose not to pirate out-weigh the ratio that sympathize with indie producers? Show us some statistics please if you're going to make this argument.
      - jacoblyles 17y ago
        >"I'd hypothesize that the amount of piracy a title gets is directly proportional to its popularity." I'd hypothesize that its popularity is directly related to its production values and budget, with a few exceptions. That is, the more popular media is the kind of creation that needs to be incentivized, because its expensive. I've seen people who aren't even particularly tech savvy pirate Hollywood movies and major label music. It seems to me that pirates are killing the very content makers whose products they most enjoy. I don't have any statistics or evidence beyond the unanimity of my personal experience and observation. Could you give me statistics that show people pirate low-budget content more than the reverse?
chrischen 17y ago
Agreed. And from my experience the willingness of a person to pay depends on the person, no their objective evaluation of the fairness of the price. In other words if you're filthy rich you'll be more inclined to pay for even overpriced software, and if you're dirt poor you'll be more inclined to pirate even cheapo software. I saw this firsthand in a friend who, after getting a job, decided to start paying for software. I do the same thing. If I have money, I'll pay for a song, otherwise I listen on youtube and keep the tab there for the next 6 months.
mschy 17y ago
Or perhaps copyright is a valid idea, and is not going to be abandoned. Perhaps the government will simply increase the costs and risks associated with breaking that law until they are so extreme, and the risk of getting caught so high, that large-scale piracy will cease to be a worthwhile endeavor. I know that HN is fond of the view that IP will be abandoned, but I see no compelling reason to believe your vision is more likely than mine.
- barrkel 17y ago
  I believe the institutional costs to ensure the practical security of digital IP always and everywhere would be all but indistinguishable from a police state. One would have to outlaw user-customized hardware, non-corporate software development and build user spying capabilities into every device.
  - ryanwaggoner 17y ago
    Yeah...so basically the trends that are currently taking place?
  - mschy 17y ago
    I specifically said 'large-scale piracy' because I agree that a sufficiently dedicated individual will always be able to steal intellectual property. That said, an IP market doesn't need perfect government protection to survive. It just needs to be good enough that those who wish to steal additional copies incur substantive risk and/or cost. I'm not arguing it's the best or only way to proceed, simply that it is a possible and seemingly viable way to do so, and as such, people would do well to recognize that the future is not guaranteed to be copyright and patent-free.
  - actf 17y ago
    You're building a straw man here. Large-scale piracy is very different than ensuring "the practical security of digital IP always and everywhere". Putting a _practical_ stop to services such as the Pirate Bay would be incredibly simple if it were enacted by national governments. If it turns out that in practice it's not enough there's numerous other easy, cost effective measures that could taken. A solution doesn't have to stop 100% of piracy to be effective.

thasmin 17y ago

People are willing to pay for creative work. The copyright holder should realize that rampant "theft" would indicate that their price is too high, and they should lower the price or create higher value work that people value at their desired price. Copyright law may be outdated in that copyright holders are able to shout "piracy" instead of obeying the laws of economics, but I don't believe it is the main problem.

jacoblyles 17y ago
>"The copyright holder should realize that rampant "theft" would indicate that their price is too high, and they should lower the price or create higher value work that people value at their desired price." No, I think you're wrong. I think most pirates would continue to pirate media, even if the author increased the value of the media. They just take the extra consumer surplus and enjoy it.
- thasmin 17y ago
  Those pirates perceive the work to have no value. Possible reasons include that the pirate has no money, doesn't expect to use the work for long, or doesn't think they'll enjoy the work very much. The copyright holder loses no money when these people pirate their work and should not complain when they do so. It's difficult to recognize why a person is pirating. For all I know, copyright holders have priced their works correctly and are complaining about people like this.
anamax 17y ago
> The copyright holder should realize that rampant "theft" would indicate that their price is too high, and they should lower the price or create higher value work that people value at their desired price. And if the copyright holder doesn't realize or doesn't lower her price, then what?
- thasmin 17y ago
  Then the copyright holder's work get pirated and they don't get compensated.
  - robryan 17y ago
    I don't see how this differs from a physical good in this way, say I don't like your price so I'm just going to take it can be applied to anything. I think if piracy was completely stamped out people may be willing to pay a price point that they previously wouldn't have.
    - thasmin 17y ago
      Physical goods have a higher perceived value because you can touch and resell it. PC games are on their way to essentially ending piracy with services like Steam. Some people may be willing to pay a higher price point, but games at discounted prices are still tremendously popular.

patio11 17y ago

people won't even talk about piracy No, producers will move to platforms where it is difficult to impossible. Care to guess how many people have pirated the SaaS version of Bingo Card Creator versus how many have pirated the downloaded version? I am not the only person to have done the math here. Look at the sales of, say, MW2 on consoles (where piracy is hard) versus PCs (where piracy is trivial). Look at the PC games which actually sell, where World Of Please Pirate This Shiny Flat Paperweight is probably, what, 4 of the top 20 SKUs at any given time. There used to be a thriving PC games market. It has, predictably, shrunk to those sectors where it is actually profitable, avoiding sectors where 90% of the "customers" steal the product. Every time I hear the online crowd whinging about nickle-and-dime models like microtransactions, and not being able to "own" the software they planned on stealing, I have a brief moment of that very hard to spell German word.

moe 17y ago
producers will move to platforms where it is difficult to impossible. That works only for software, not for media.
- mikedouglas 17y ago
  Avatar was shot in 3D for more than purely artistic motives.
  - moe 17y ago
    Well, and? The big screen experience has always been different to what you could get at home. That apparently didn't stop people from watching pirated hollywood content on their small tubes. Likewise 3d screens will dripple into homes the same way radios and tv sets have.
    - dkersten 17y ago
      3D capable TVs are already available. Its just a matter of them becoming mainstream.
17y ago

mikedouglas 17y ago

What changes to copyright law would decrease piracy, yet still incentive content creation? I'm genuinely interested if anyone here has any ideas; it seems like a very difficult problem.

thwarted 17y ago
I think first we must ask if content creation truly needs to incentived. That content would go uncreated, and that we'd somehow lose out on content that needs to be incentived in order to be created, and that said content is somehow more valuable than content that doesn't need an incentive to be created, seems like a pretty big assumption.
- jacoblyles 17y ago
  Pirates go after the multi-million dollar Hollywood blockbusters moreso than art school film projects. Revealed preferences seem to suggest that people often prefer media which has a non-trivial cost of production. Pirates dig Avatar, too. And there will be no Avatar when they can no longer charge for it.
  - actf 17y ago
    I don't I buy that argument without data to back it up. I'd hypothesize that the amount of piracy a title gets is directly proportional to its popularity. Sure with an indie title you have fans that are more sympathetic to the producer, but with mass market titles you have the entire mass-market demographic. Do you really think that the number of people in the mass-market who are too lazy, dumb, or otherwise choose not to pirate out-weigh the ratio that sympathize with indie producers? Show us some statistics please if you're going to make this argument.
    - jacoblyles 17y ago
      >"I'd hypothesize that the amount of piracy a title gets is directly proportional to its popularity." I'd hypothesize that its popularity is directly related to its production values and budget, with a few exceptions. That is, the more popular media is the kind of creation that needs to be incentivized, because its expensive. I've seen people who aren't even particularly tech savvy pirate Hollywood movies and major label music. It seems to me that pirates are killing the very content makers whose products they most enjoy. I don't have any statistics or evidence beyond the unanimity of my personal experience and observation. Could you give me statistics that show people pirate low-budget content more than the reverse?

chrischen 17y ago

Agreed. And from my experience the willingness of a person to pay depends on the person, no their objective evaluation of the fairness of the price. In other words if you're filthy rich you'll be more inclined to pay for even overpriced software, and if you're dirt poor you'll be more inclined to pirate even cheapo software. I saw this firsthand in a friend who, after getting a job, decided to start paying for software. I do the same thing. If I have money, I'll pay for a song, otherwise I listen on youtube and keep the tab there for the next 6 months.

mschy 17y ago

Or perhaps copyright is a valid idea, and is not going to be abandoned. Perhaps the government will simply increase the costs and risks associated with breaking that law until they are so extreme, and the risk of getting caught so high, that large-scale piracy will cease to be a worthwhile endeavor. I know that HN is fond of the view that IP will be abandoned, but I see no compelling reason to believe your vision is more likely than mine.

barrkel 17y ago
I believe the institutional costs to ensure the practical security of digital IP always and everywhere would be all but indistinguishable from a police state. One would have to outlaw user-customized hardware, non-corporate software development and build user spying capabilities into every device.
- ryanwaggoner 17y ago
  Yeah...so basically the trends that are currently taking place?
- mschy 17y ago
  I specifically said 'large-scale piracy' because I agree that a sufficiently dedicated individual will always be able to steal intellectual property. That said, an IP market doesn't need perfect government protection to survive. It just needs to be good enough that those who wish to steal additional copies incur substantive risk and/or cost. I'm not arguing it's the best or only way to proceed, simply that it is a possible and seemingly viable way to do so, and as such, people would do well to recognize that the future is not guaranteed to be copyright and patent-free.
- actf 17y ago
  You're building a straw man here. Large-scale piracy is very different than ensuring "the practical security of digital IP always and everywhere". Putting a _practical_ stop to services such as the Pirate Bay would be incredibly simple if it were enacted by national governments. If it turns out that in practice it's not enough there's numerous other easy, cost effective measures that could taken. A solution doesn't have to stop 100% of piracy to be effective.