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I think this post, including what you are saying, is even more interesting because you have privately funded NGO's and companies like Palantir in on the game wh

I think this post, including what you are saying, is even more interesting because you have privately funded NGO's and companies like Palantir in on the game which makes me wonder more what exactly is going on that we're not seeing. What are the other incentives (beyond altruism because we're already supposed to accept that) of these different actors[0] who continue to operate under the same assumptions? Do you elaborate on such questions in your thesis? [0] https://polarisproject.org/supporters https://polarisproject.org/supporters

stopthelies 11y ago
Do you think that NGO's are going to hire me when what I shine the light on the statistics they use to justify their operating budget? This is not the area my paper covers, and I don't want speak about any particular NGO by name, but creating a hyperbolic tale of "sex slaves" makes money for NGO's. In reality, if it's in fact the nightmarish horror that image conjures, I'm pleased to let you know law enforcement, government and charity is abundant for these victims. Victims are helped, perpetrators are punished. For example, in China, pimping can have you executed. Every country offers counselor services where they'll print them a new temporary visa and even a ticket back home. Many choose not to, they'd rather go try to find a way to go through the immigration system and get citizenship. This is off topic of my paper, but being a female and having a child may earn the mother favor toward getting naturalized in many places (laws, department/ministry policies or judge discretion). Regarding the different NGO actors, this is even farther away from my area. But sometimes NGO's are actually fronts for GO's. An example would be USA using NGO's for subversion in Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_foreign_agent_law#Implications_for_NGOs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_foreign_agent_law#Impl...). That said, way out of the area I'm collecting data on. Regardless, this thesis is only a thesis. "Exposing" those who misrepresent NGO's isn't a career. What I want to tell you is that a lot of people pass on a humanistic message, when they're really hustling people. If you do care about people, I think the best thing you can do is volunteer your time, skill and expertise. A good example is Médecins Sans Frontières.
- cinquemb 11y ago
  >Do you think that NGO's are going to hire me when what I shine the light on the statistics they use to justify their operating budget? I think the easy answer would just to be say no, but if politics certainly has the influence that you say it does in the incentive process of what is going on, then I'd assume their would non zero probability for a billionaire to swoop in and support you in telling the "truth" in a "careful and controlled" manor à la Intercept and the Snowden "leaks". >This is not the area my paper covers… What area's does your paper cover then? >What I want to tell you is that a lot of people pass on a humanistic message, when they're really hustling people. Oh I already know, it's always amusing to watch people take the bait and then ignore the actions of the same people out of mutual interest/ "loin des yeux, loin de coeur"/fear/ or can't be bothered to look deeper. >If you do care about people, I think the best thing you can do is volunteer your time, skill and expertise. A good example is Médecins Sans Frontières. One of my skills and expertise (mostly trying to apply things i'm playing around with to something that others might find useful) surrounds datamining/data exfil from walled gardens/etc, where one of most recent things I've done was building a tool[0] that let people search the hacking team emails more efficiently with LSA techniques so that people could use it to gain insight into the operations of international defense contractors in the realm. If you have any suggestions on any possible methods of how one should go after looking for such info and to classify such as a signal of human trafficking that takes in consideration of the nuances that people are over looking, I'm all ears. I would be glad to take a stab at figuring out how to mine for such information if no one is doing it because I'm pretty curious to see how something like that would compare to what people are pushing now. [0] https://github.com/cinquemb/hackedteam-email-index-mining https://github.com/cinquemb/hackedteam-email-index-mining
ethanbond 11y ago
The pragmatic justification for Palantir's involvement seems straightforward to me: 1. The problems that Polaris are working on are exactly what Palantir software is made for. 2. Most other instances of this problem do not generate unequivocally good publicity. To be absolutely clear, when I say "instances," I'm not referring to instances where Palantir is used. I'm referring to instances of the problem-type that Palantir solves. Other examples of this problem and why they wouldn't generate unequivocally good publicity: counter-insurgency ("we shouldn't be involved in the middle east"), counterterrorism ("at the expense of civil liberties"), counterfraud ("rich people get away with fines after stealing millions anyways"), etc. Palantir works with Polaris and NCMEC because they actually care (IMO), Polaris/NCMEC needs align precisely with Palantir capabilities, and they're a rare opportunity to be somewhat public about the company, if not the software.
- cinquemb 11y ago
  >2. Most other instances of this problem do not generate unequivocally good publicity. `stopthelies comments brings the "unequivocally good" into question (maybe not to the general public, but certainly here in this thread), which makes this bit seem a bit handwavy if I state the circumstance like this: Even though we help enable organizations, whose methods are based on questionable ways of classifying what is going on to continue in order to attract funds/status/etc which can skew how resources are allocated and how certain populations would be negatively affected, this is still unquestionably a good thing to do. I wonder how many times "victims" are "helped" when "every country offers counselor services where they'll print them a new temporary visa and even a ticket back home"[0] and makes sure they're on the flight? We'll probably never know until everything isn't jumbled into "human trafficking" tag. >Palantir works with Polaris and NCMEC because they actually care (IMO), Polaris/NCMEC needs align precisely with Palantir capabilities, and they're a rare opportunity to be somewhat public about the company, if not the software. If I pass this through an altruism filter, the 2nd and 3rd remain. I can say sure to 2 because anyone with ability to generate such plots and access to the data could do that, but I think 3 is the most interesting. Can you elaborate on the benefits of this? The last bit makes me think someone could plausibly construct this as some kind of recruiting gambit for the company and not the unequivocally good cause (which of course would be a valid benefit, but only as far as others choice to perceive such as unequivocally good [i.e. act as a negative signal of sorts, kind of like whiteboard interviews for experienced devs]). [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10740546 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10740546

stopthelies 11y ago

Do you think that NGO's are going to hire me when what I shine the light on the statistics they use to justify their operating budget? This is not the area my paper covers, and I don't want speak about any particular NGO by name, but creating a hyperbolic tale of "sex slaves" makes money for NGO's. In reality, if it's in fact the nightmarish horror that image conjures, I'm pleased to let you know law enforcement, government and charity is abundant for these victims. Victims are helped, perpetrators are punished. For example, in China, pimping can have you executed. Every country offers counselor services where they'll print them a new temporary visa and even a ticket back home. Many choose not to, they'd rather go try to find a way to go through the immigration system and get citizenship. This is off topic of my paper, but being a female and having a child may earn the mother favor toward getting naturalized in many places (laws, department/ministry policies or judge discretion). Regarding the different NGO actors, this is even farther away from my area. But sometimes NGO's are actually fronts for GO's. An example would be USA using NGO's for subversion in Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_foreign_agent_law#Implications_for_NGOs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_foreign_agent_law#Impl...). That said, way out of the area I'm collecting data on. Regardless, this thesis is only a thesis. "Exposing" those who misrepresent NGO's isn't a career. What I want to tell you is that a lot of people pass on a humanistic message, when they're really hustling people. If you do care about people, I think the best thing you can do is volunteer your time, skill and expertise. A good example is Médecins Sans Frontières.

cinquemb 11y ago
>Do you think that NGO's are going to hire me when what I shine the light on the statistics they use to justify their operating budget? I think the easy answer would just to be say no, but if politics certainly has the influence that you say it does in the incentive process of what is going on, then I'd assume their would non zero probability for a billionaire to swoop in and support you in telling the "truth" in a "careful and controlled" manor à la Intercept and the Snowden "leaks". >This is not the area my paper covers… What area's does your paper cover then? >What I want to tell you is that a lot of people pass on a humanistic message, when they're really hustling people. Oh I already know, it's always amusing to watch people take the bait and then ignore the actions of the same people out of mutual interest/ "loin des yeux, loin de coeur"/fear/ or can't be bothered to look deeper. >If you do care about people, I think the best thing you can do is volunteer your time, skill and expertise. A good example is Médecins Sans Frontières. One of my skills and expertise (mostly trying to apply things i'm playing around with to something that others might find useful) surrounds datamining/data exfil from walled gardens/etc, where one of most recent things I've done was building a tool[0] that let people search the hacking team emails more efficiently with LSA techniques so that people could use it to gain insight into the operations of international defense contractors in the realm. If you have any suggestions on any possible methods of how one should go after looking for such info and to classify such as a signal of human trafficking that takes in consideration of the nuances that people are over looking, I'm all ears. I would be glad to take a stab at figuring out how to mine for such information if no one is doing it because I'm pretty curious to see how something like that would compare to what people are pushing now. [0] https://github.com/cinquemb/hackedteam-email-index-mining https://github.com/cinquemb/hackedteam-email-index-mining

ethanbond 11y ago

The pragmatic justification for Palantir's involvement seems straightforward to me: 1. The problems that Polaris are working on are exactly what Palantir software is made for. 2. Most other instances of this problem do not generate unequivocally good publicity. To be absolutely clear, when I say "instances," I'm not referring to instances where Palantir is used. I'm referring to instances of the problem-type that Palantir solves. Other examples of this problem and why they wouldn't generate unequivocally good publicity: counter-insurgency ("we shouldn't be involved in the middle east"), counterterrorism ("at the expense of civil liberties"), counterfraud ("rich people get away with fines after stealing millions anyways"), etc. Palantir works with Polaris and NCMEC because they actually care (IMO), Polaris/NCMEC needs align precisely with Palantir capabilities, and they're a rare opportunity to be somewhat public about the company, if not the software.

cinquemb 11y ago
>2. Most other instances of this problem do not generate unequivocally good publicity. `stopthelies comments brings the "unequivocally good" into question (maybe not to the general public, but certainly here in this thread), which makes this bit seem a bit handwavy if I state the circumstance like this: Even though we help enable organizations, whose methods are based on questionable ways of classifying what is going on to continue in order to attract funds/status/etc which can skew how resources are allocated and how certain populations would be negatively affected, this is still unquestionably a good thing to do. I wonder how many times "victims" are "helped" when "every country offers counselor services where they'll print them a new temporary visa and even a ticket back home"[0] and makes sure they're on the flight? We'll probably never know until everything isn't jumbled into "human trafficking" tag. >Palantir works with Polaris and NCMEC because they actually care (IMO), Polaris/NCMEC needs align precisely with Palantir capabilities, and they're a rare opportunity to be somewhat public about the company, if not the software. If I pass this through an altruism filter, the 2nd and 3rd remain. I can say sure to 2 because anyone with ability to generate such plots and access to the data could do that, but I think 3 is the most interesting. Can you elaborate on the benefits of this? The last bit makes me think someone could plausibly construct this as some kind of recruiting gambit for the company and not the unequivocally good cause (which of course would be a valid benefit, but only as far as others choice to perceive such as unequivocally good [i.e. act as a negative signal of sorts, kind of like whiteboard interviews for experienced devs]). [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10740546 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10740546