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Simply false. It contradicts statistical fact and scientific fact. 1) Average annual hours worked: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time#Average_annual_ho

by dkural 11y ago

Simply false. It contradicts statistical fact and scientific fact. 1) Average annual hours worked: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time#Average_annual_hours_actually_worked_per_worker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time#Average_annual_ho... 2) The vast majority of humans cannot survive with average sleep length of 4-5h per night on a consistent basis: We will literally, physically die. In reality, the Japanese sleep between 7 and 8 hours on average: http://www.nhk.or.jp/bunken/english/reports/summary/201104/01.html http://www.nhk.or.jp/bunken/english/reports/summary/201104/0...

hudibras 11y ago
Re 1): Yup. There's a lot of focus, especially in Western press, on the salarymen and how much they work. But the vast majority of Japanese workers aren't salarymen. Assembly line workers at Nissan or Yamaha don't work 17 hours a day, that's for sure. Even other white-collar workers like doctors and teachers have schedules comparable to their counterparts in other countries.
forrestthewoods 11y ago
The country wide average, assuming it's even accurate, is irrelevant. You can still have a significant percentage of the population working death marches.
mc32 11y ago
I'd take those OECD numbers with a grain of salt. People don't do "work" while "at work" for extravagantly long hours, but in many salaried industries they are "at work" for longer then 8-hours per day. Sometimes it's just schmoozing, waiting for the big boss or the little boss to leave, giving the rest implicit permission to leave --even if the boss is just waiting for the time they have to meet their date. Or, you may be obliged to go out with coworkers for drinks afterhours, even if you don't drink. So, it's not uncommon to see people who you could imagine in the day were the quintessential salaryman passed out on the train home, possibly next to another one who puked and sprawled on the floor of the train. Also, stupidity during these episodes is forgotten, for the most part. Pissing and vomiting in public is kind of accepted after certain times of the night. However, most the hanging out and drinking is for business reasons rather than hanging out with buds.
in_cahoots 11y ago
The numbers don't add up even using the ones in the article. 300 hours per month is somewhere between 60 and 75 hours per week, not the 105-hour weeks quoted here. Even 3000 hours per year works out to 60 hours per week with ten days' vacation. I'm pretty sure you could walk into a white-shoe law firm in NYC and find similar stories.
hkmurakami 11y ago
That wikipedia data for Japan is artifically low either because (1) overtime is often unreported and unpaid in Japan (more common in small companies but also true in highly profitable places, including my own former employer) and (2) much of the young workforce is underemployed much like in the States. It is true also that the numbers will differ from industry to industry, tier to tier. The worst is probably the smaller System Integration "SI" shops. The Mizuho Bank System Integration work going on right now is one much project that will be a multi-year "death march". And yes, people do actually die in these projects. You don't get terms like Karoshi entering Western vernacular without cause. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%8Dshi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%8Dshi Even at my former gig, there was a building occupied by the Integrated Circuits team that was called "The Castle with no Night" because the motion detection enabled lights never went out.
WalterBright 11y ago
When a friend worked in an administrative building, word got around that the boss would drive around in the evening and note which offices had their lights on, and would credit the occupants with being hard workers. After that, everyone just left the lights on when they went home for the day.
hardwaresofton 11y ago
Not disagreeing with your point, but be wary when reading research/opinion about japan published by the NHK or any company relatively close to government influence inside japan. Japan's journalistic integrity is sometimes a little lacking.

by dkural 11y ago

hudibras 11y ago

Re 1): Yup. There's a lot of focus, especially in Western press, on the salarymen and how much they work. But the vast majority of Japanese workers aren't salarymen. Assembly line workers at Nissan or Yamaha don't work 17 hours a day, that's for sure. Even other white-collar workers like doctors and teachers have schedules comparable to their counterparts in other countries.

forrestthewoods 11y ago

The country wide average, assuming it's even accurate, is irrelevant. You can still have a significant percentage of the population working death marches.

mc32 11y ago

I'd take those OECD numbers with a grain of salt. People don't do "work" while "at work" for extravagantly long hours, but in many salaried industries they are "at work" for longer then 8-hours per day. Sometimes it's just schmoozing, waiting for the big boss or the little boss to leave, giving the rest implicit permission to leave --even if the boss is just waiting for the time they have to meet their date. Or, you may be obliged to go out with coworkers for drinks afterhours, even if you don't drink. So, it's not uncommon to see people who you could imagine in the day were the quintessential salaryman passed out on the train home, possibly next to another one who puked and sprawled on the floor of the train. Also, stupidity during these episodes is forgotten, for the most part. Pissing and vomiting in public is kind of accepted after certain times of the night. However, most the hanging out and drinking is for business reasons rather than hanging out with buds.

in_cahoots 11y ago

The numbers don't add up even using the ones in the article. 300 hours per month is somewhere between 60 and 75 hours per week, not the 105-hour weeks quoted here. Even 3000 hours per year works out to 60 hours per week with ten days' vacation. I'm pretty sure you could walk into a white-shoe law firm in NYC and find similar stories.

hkmurakami 11y ago

That wikipedia data for Japan is artifically low either because (1) overtime is often unreported and unpaid in Japan (more common in small companies but also true in highly profitable places, including my own former employer) and (2) much of the young workforce is underemployed much like in the States. It is true also that the numbers will differ from industry to industry, tier to tier. The worst is probably the smaller System Integration "SI" shops. The Mizuho Bank System Integration work going on right now is one much project that will be a multi-year "death march". And yes, people do actually die in these projects. You don't get terms like Karoshi entering Western vernacular without cause. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%8Dshi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%8Dshi Even at my former gig, there was a building occupied by the Integrated Circuits team that was called "The Castle with no Night" because the motion detection enabled lights never went out.

WalterBright 11y ago

When a friend worked in an administrative building, word got around that the boss would drive around in the evening and note which offices had their lights on, and would credit the occupants with being hard workers. After that, everyone just left the lights on when they went home for the day.

hardwaresofton 11y ago

Not disagreeing with your point, but be wary when reading research/opinion about japan published by the NHK or any company relatively close to government influence inside japan. Japan's journalistic integrity is sometimes a little lacking.