5 ms·

UK seals documents about suicide of weapons inspector David Kelly for 70 years

96 points by JeremyBanks 17y ago

njs12345 17y ago
This is why we need Wikileaks..
- Silhouette 17y ago
  Wikileaks isn't the answer to problems like this. If you have to rely on a dubiously ethical web site that tries to position itself outside the law, some pretty fundamental things have already gone wrong. For a start, we have to ask why the legal power exists to seal records in this way, who has the authority to order such seals, and what kind of oversight exists to make independent determinations about whether such seals are in the public interest.
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    > For a start, we have to ask why the legal power exists to seal records in this way That is exactly the key. The fact that a government can put itself above any sort of public inquiry for 70 years is completely counter to what any respectable democracy should stand for.
  - gruseom 17y ago
    Yes, but in the meantime, let's have Wikileaks.
  - cabalamat 17y ago
    > Wikileaks isn't the answer to problems like this. In an ideal world, we wouldn't need Wikileaks. In the world we have, Wikileaks is a valuable resource.
  - CamperBob 17y ago
    If you have to rely on a dubiously ethical web site that tries to position itself outside the law, some pretty fundamental things have already gone wrong. Correct. I pay Wikileaks to be explicitly unethical, for that very reason. It's like someone said elsewhere in the thread: if governments have nothing to hide, then they have nothing to fear, right?
    - Silhouette 17y ago
      The problem with this argument is that sometimes people, governments, businesses or whoever else do have something to hide, and sometimes they are hiding those things for honest, legitimate reasons. But sites like Wikileaks don't tend to pay much attention to that.
      - mr_eel 17y ago
        Well it might be more useful for your argument if you discussed particular instances where wikileaks has published material that you consider hidden legitimately.
        Silhouette 17y ago
        One obvious example was publishing the membership records of the BNP. You and I might not share their political views, but violating the privacy/anonymity of members of any political party is not the way forward, particularly when such violation will inevitably lead to sanctions that are at best dubiously ethical themselves.
        mr_eel 17y ago
        That's a good example. I agree with you. In that case Wikileaks was clearly unethical.
- hristov 17y ago
  Unfortunately, somebody has to leak it first. People that have things to hide are really good at leak control. The article says that they prevented an ordinary police inquest from taking place in order to have their "special" investigation. This means that the people that were doing the investigating were probably carefully selected. If there was a normal police inquest chances are there would be at least one honest cop or DA that would leak the stuff. But now it is doubtful.
jacquesm 17y ago
So much for a transparant UK government I guess. David Kelly is one of the first victims of the Iraq war, and I really don't give a rats ass about any government whitewash operation until they come clean with all the documents they've got. Until then it should simply be classified as a murder. Also, Dr. Kelly was right in every aspect of his criticism in the run-up to the war and he should be remembered as one of the very few voices of reason in England during that period. The blood of this man is on the hands of Tony Blair. more here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245599/David-Kelly-post-mortem-kept-secret-70-years-doctors-accuse-Lord-Hutton-concealing-vital-information.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245599/David-Kelly-...
- cabalamat 17y ago
  I used to think the death of David Kelly was suicide. Now I am not sure. If there wasn't something highly dubious going on, why would the government keep it secret for 70 years?
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    I lost a lot of confidence in governments in general when the French authorities decided to blow up the Greenpeace boat and ended up killing a civilian. Governments can and do operate clandestinely, the only real question is how much. David Kelly's death came at a very good time for the British Government, he had already proven to be willing to go public with potentially very damning information. My take on it was that he would have continued to make plain his findings until either the British participation in the Iraq war would have become untenable or there would have been a government crisis. The interesting part is that after all the dust settled it all seemed to boil down to the exact definition of what it means when a report is 'sexed up', as vague a term as you could want to have for that purpose. Apparently 'selecting evidence that is convenient whilst leaving out that which is inconvenient' is not enough.
    - cubicle67 17y ago
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior if anyone's interested
jacquesm 17y ago
Thanks to the moderator that decided to recycle this posting from the 'dead' pool.
- JeremyBanks 17y ago
  This was dead? Do you know if it was auto-killed or flagged out?
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    It looked like it had to be flagged out because at the time it already had 10+ votes. So an editor had to have killed it and another had to restore it. Weird. I can see why though, it is a purely political piece. Either that or I'm seeing things :)
    - nir 17y ago
      Even though the story's interesting, I think it should have been flagged - there's plenty of places to discuss it online, and there's no way not to Redditize this kind of conversation. Already there's a comment here claiming the Baha'i (??) may be behind this..
      - jacquesm 17y ago
        > Already there's a comment here claiming the Baha'i (??) may be behind this.. You can file that one under 'it takes all kinds'... Also anybody that would know even the most cursory facts about the Bahá'í would realize that that is not a very likely explanation. I'm in the atheist camp and was quite surprised to see a scientist of Dr. Kelly's calibre associated with an obscure religion so I did some reading and I think I could see some of the motivations for his actions rooted in his faith. It's an interesting faith in the sense that it has worldwide following and was founded in recent times. The united nations actually figure quite prominently in the followers of this religion.
tjic 17y ago
I've read allegations that David Kelly's rapid turn around from saying that there were WMDs present to arguing that there were none present was the result of blackmail over evidence of him being sexually involved with an aide. Googling on "David Kelly blackmail" gives thousands of hits. Here's one: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-490216/Sex-drugs-blackmail-plot-royal-Im-innocent.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-490216/Sex-drugs-bla...
- CamperBob 17y ago
  COINTELPRO's just phoning it in these days, I guess.
- nik61 17y ago
  This reference has nothing to do with Kelly at all. Read it.
- sailormoon 17y ago
  You're kidding. Does this mean that people with something to hide can act to protect their secrets by traducing would-be whistleblowers? This changes .. everything.
- tarkin2 17y ago
  That link isn't even related to David Kelly.
vaksel 17y ago
funny how "if you have nothing to hide" never applies to gov't.
runn1ng 17y ago
I will add that according to some, this death has something to do with Bahá'í faith/cult - more info here http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Kelly.htm http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Kelly.htm and in this documentary - http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-760569989112215408 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-760569989112215408 Part1, http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1716751462345868958 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1716751462345868958 part 2
- runn1ng 17y ago
  Somehow the first part is in Arbic... I am on iPhone now and not actually able to find english version now... but I guess someone else will. Maybe
mark_l_watson 17y ago
The book "The Sovereign Individual" (published at least 10 years ago) predicted that the UK, then the USA would transition into much less free countries as their economies started to unravel. The authors also wrote a book predicting the fall of the Berlin Wall a few years before that event happened. I view the political BS and general war-mongering in both countries to be a cover for those in power not wanting to confront very serious economic problems. Something to distract people, etc.
- illumen 17y ago
  'War is the cause of the economic problems.' That is likely another possibility. Massive spending, along with intellectual & political effort going towards something which takes away value - this is war.
ronnier 17y ago
This may be off topic, but I was working with David Kelly's brother when he found out his brother died. After watching the news, I then realized how well known and important his brother was.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  Not only that, he also was one of the very few men involved in the run up to the Iraq war that actually had a conscience. I've read a lot about him and he strikes me as a really good human being and we are poorer for having lost him.
david927 17y ago
To die from blood loss, you have to bleed out at least 40% of your total blood volume, which would be approximately 2 liters (normal blood volume is 4-5L). The paramedics reported very little blood at the Kelly scene. The knife, which was alleged to belonged to Kelly, had no fingerprints on it.

96 points by JeremyBanks 17y ago

njs12345 17y ago

This is why we need Wikileaks..

Silhouette 17y ago
Wikileaks isn't the answer to problems like this. If you have to rely on a dubiously ethical web site that tries to position itself outside the law, some pretty fundamental things have already gone wrong. For a start, we have to ask why the legal power exists to seal records in this way, who has the authority to order such seals, and what kind of oversight exists to make independent determinations about whether such seals are in the public interest.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  > For a start, we have to ask why the legal power exists to seal records in this way That is exactly the key. The fact that a government can put itself above any sort of public inquiry for 70 years is completely counter to what any respectable democracy should stand for.
- gruseom 17y ago
  Yes, but in the meantime, let's have Wikileaks.
- cabalamat 17y ago
  > Wikileaks isn't the answer to problems like this. In an ideal world, we wouldn't need Wikileaks. In the world we have, Wikileaks is a valuable resource.
- CamperBob 17y ago
  If you have to rely on a dubiously ethical web site that tries to position itself outside the law, some pretty fundamental things have already gone wrong. Correct. I pay Wikileaks to be explicitly unethical, for that very reason. It's like someone said elsewhere in the thread: if governments have nothing to hide, then they have nothing to fear, right?
  - Silhouette 17y ago
    The problem with this argument is that sometimes people, governments, businesses or whoever else do have something to hide, and sometimes they are hiding those things for honest, legitimate reasons. But sites like Wikileaks don't tend to pay much attention to that.
    - mr_eel 17y ago
      Well it might be more useful for your argument if you discussed particular instances where wikileaks has published material that you consider hidden legitimately.
      - Silhouette 17y ago
        One obvious example was publishing the membership records of the BNP. You and I might not share their political views, but violating the privacy/anonymity of members of any political party is not the way forward, particularly when such violation will inevitably lead to sanctions that are at best dubiously ethical themselves.
        mr_eel 17y ago
        That's a good example. I agree with you. In that case Wikileaks was clearly unethical.
hristov 17y ago
Unfortunately, somebody has to leak it first. People that have things to hide are really good at leak control. The article says that they prevented an ordinary police inquest from taking place in order to have their "special" investigation. This means that the people that were doing the investigating were probably carefully selected. If there was a normal police inquest chances are there would be at least one honest cop or DA that would leak the stuff. But now it is doubtful.

jacquesm 17y ago

So much for a transparant UK government I guess. David Kelly is one of the first victims of the Iraq war, and I really don't give a rats ass about any government whitewash operation until they come clean with all the documents they've got. Until then it should simply be classified as a murder. Also, Dr. Kelly was right in every aspect of his criticism in the run-up to the war and he should be remembered as one of the very few voices of reason in England during that period. The blood of this man is on the hands of Tony Blair. more here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245599/David-Kelly-post-mortem-kept-secret-70-years-doctors-accuse-Lord-Hutton-concealing-vital-information.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245599/David-Kelly-...

cabalamat 17y ago
I used to think the death of David Kelly was suicide. Now I am not sure. If there wasn't something highly dubious going on, why would the government keep it secret for 70 years?
- jacquesm 17y ago
  I lost a lot of confidence in governments in general when the French authorities decided to blow up the Greenpeace boat and ended up killing a civilian. Governments can and do operate clandestinely, the only real question is how much. David Kelly's death came at a very good time for the British Government, he had already proven to be willing to go public with potentially very damning information. My take on it was that he would have continued to make plain his findings until either the British participation in the Iraq war would have become untenable or there would have been a government crisis. The interesting part is that after all the dust settled it all seemed to boil down to the exact definition of what it means when a report is 'sexed up', as vague a term as you could want to have for that purpose. Apparently 'selecting evidence that is convenient whilst leaving out that which is inconvenient' is not enough.
  - cubicle67 17y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior if anyone's interested

jacquesm 17y ago

Thanks to the moderator that decided to recycle this posting from the 'dead' pool.

JeremyBanks 17y ago
This was dead? Do you know if it was auto-killed or flagged out?
- jacquesm 17y ago
  It looked like it had to be flagged out because at the time it already had 10+ votes. So an editor had to have killed it and another had to restore it. Weird. I can see why though, it is a purely political piece. Either that or I'm seeing things :)
  - nir 17y ago
    Even though the story's interesting, I think it should have been flagged - there's plenty of places to discuss it online, and there's no way not to Redditize this kind of conversation. Already there's a comment here claiming the Baha'i (??) may be behind this..
    - jacquesm 17y ago
      > Already there's a comment here claiming the Baha'i (??) may be behind this.. You can file that one under 'it takes all kinds'... Also anybody that would know even the most cursory facts about the Bahá'í would realize that that is not a very likely explanation. I'm in the atheist camp and was quite surprised to see a scientist of Dr. Kelly's calibre associated with an obscure religion so I did some reading and I think I could see some of the motivations for his actions rooted in his faith. It's an interesting faith in the sense that it has worldwide following and was founded in recent times. The united nations actually figure quite prominently in the followers of this religion.

tjic 17y ago

I've read allegations that David Kelly's rapid turn around from saying that there were WMDs present to arguing that there were none present was the result of blackmail over evidence of him being sexually involved with an aide. Googling on "David Kelly blackmail" gives thousands of hits. Here's one: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-490216/Sex-drugs-blackmail-plot-royal-Im-innocent.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-490216/Sex-drugs-bla...

CamperBob 17y ago
COINTELPRO's just phoning it in these days, I guess.
nik61 17y ago
This reference has nothing to do with Kelly at all. Read it.
sailormoon 17y ago
You're kidding. Does this mean that people with something to hide can act to protect their secrets by traducing would-be whistleblowers? This changes .. everything.
tarkin2 17y ago
That link isn't even related to David Kelly.

vaksel 17y ago

funny how "if you have nothing to hide" never applies to gov't.

runn1ng 17y ago

I will add that according to some, this death has something to do with Bahá'í faith/cult - more info here http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Kelly.htm http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Kelly.htm and in this documentary - http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-760569989112215408 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-760569989112215408 Part1, http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1716751462345868958 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1716751462345868958 part 2

runn1ng 17y ago
Somehow the first part is in Arbic... I am on iPhone now and not actually able to find english version now... but I guess someone else will. Maybe

mark_l_watson 17y ago

The book "The Sovereign Individual" (published at least 10 years ago) predicted that the UK, then the USA would transition into much less free countries as their economies started to unravel. The authors also wrote a book predicting the fall of the Berlin Wall a few years before that event happened. I view the political BS and general war-mongering in both countries to be a cover for those in power not wanting to confront very serious economic problems. Something to distract people, etc.

illumen 17y ago
'War is the cause of the economic problems.' That is likely another possibility. Massive spending, along with intellectual & political effort going towards something which takes away value - this is war.

ronnier 17y ago

This may be off topic, but I was working with David Kelly's brother when he found out his brother died. After watching the news, I then realized how well known and important his brother was.

jacquesm 17y ago
Not only that, he also was one of the very few men involved in the run up to the Iraq war that actually had a conscience. I've read a lot about him and he strikes me as a really good human being and we are poorer for having lost him.

david927 17y ago

To die from blood loss, you have to bleed out at least 40% of your total blood volume, which would be approximately 2 liters (normal blood volume is 4-5L). The paramedics reported very little blood at the Kelly scene. The knife, which was alleged to belonged to Kelly, had no fingerprints on it.