5 ms·

This is the Philips controller software (app) that is refusing to talk to or control 3rd party light bulbs. I don't really see this as being a problem. It's no

by gregmac 11y ago

This is the Philips controller software (app) that is refusing to talk to or control 3rd party light bulbs. I don't really see this as being a problem. It's not the nicest thing, perhaps, but neither is 3rd party companies building bulbs (presumably by ripping off the design and protocol of Philip's bulbs), and then relying on Philips to build the software so they can actually be used. In other words, Philips is refusing to build software, for free, to control their competitors' and/or counterfeit products. Do the Philips bulbs (still?) work without the Philips Hue software/app? If so, non-issue: you just have to use 3rd party software to control everything. If not, well, that's why you shouldn't buy into closed, walled-garden products.

wvenable 11y ago
The slippery slope of "intellectual property" is so steep that even building interface-compatible products is now considered ripping something off. We've come a long way from the age of IBM compatibles and the PC revolution.
- et2o 11y ago
  Except that at the time IBM tried to prevent people from making compatible PCs.
  - izacus 11y ago
    And we hugely benefited from their spectacular failure.
- chkuendig 11y ago
  On the other hand you could argue that while the pc revolution fueled on DOS licensing and IBM compatible BIOS was a a massive leap for the economy overall, it wasnt the best move for IBM in either the short nor the long term. Now they do the no-scales business of services and consulting...
  - enjo 11y ago
    $13.5 Billion in yearly revenue is apparently low scale these days.
    - chkuendig 11y ago
      to clarify: I meant economies of scale. In services they are much much lover then in software licensing (example: microsoft in the 80ties and 90ies) or integrated products (example: apple now)
  - wvenable 11y ago
    IBM made several pretty serious mistakes that lead to Microsoft's dominance on software licensing. But even on the hardware side they could have seen huge success but instead wasted time and mindshare creating the failed Microchannel architecture in order to regain control over the PC platform.
- kamaal 11y ago
  Coming soon... You won't be able to SSH into a server/box/machine, from a server/box/machine not built by the same manufacturer.
  - aaronem 11y ago
    Honestly? I'm all in favor of hyperbole where it counts, but come on, now.
chc 11y ago
I don't see how you can say that this is both "not a problem" and "why you shouldn't buy into closed, walled-garden products." Best I can tell, the thing Philips did here that people are objecting to is turning Philips Hue into a walled garden where before it was not. So if this is an example of why you shouldn't buy into closed, walled-garden products, then it sounds like this product's owners have a legitimate problem with what Philips did here.
- gregmac 11y ago
  I unfortunately don't know the entire history here, but it really comes down to what was purchased. If Philips sold the Philips Hue hub as a generic controller for all Zigbee lights, then yeah, I'd agree: they essentially did a bait-and-switch after purchase, and this is totally wrong. Like class-action lawsuit wrong. If they sold it as a controller for Philips bulbs without mentioning Zigbee interoperability, then it's customer-hostile, to be sure, but not necessarily wrong, in my eyes.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
Laaw 11y ago
Would you be saying that if Google decided to block all non-google websites from working in Chrome?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
draw_down 11y ago
> If not, well, that's why you shouldn't buy into closed, walled-garden products. Thanks, professor.
sp332 11y ago
The bulbs don't work without a hub. [Edit: doesn't have to be a Philips hub, but you still have to buy a new hub.] And Philips was really playing up interoperability and compatibility, so it's hard to look at that as a rip-off. Also it's not just "free software" - you have to pay $200 for the starter kit that includes the hub and 3 bulbs.
wlesieutre 11y ago
I wouldn't describe 3rd parties as "ripping off the design and protocol" when bulb <-> hub communication is done using the ZigBee Light Link protocol. Philips didn't develop that. Standard here: http://www.zigbee.org/?wpdmdl=2132 http://www.zigbee.org/?wpdmdl=2132 [pdf warning] And no, lights from other manufacturers (I have several from GE) no longer work via the Hue app or any of the 3rd party alternatives. I made the mistake of accepting Hue's "update your bridge" prompt already, not realizing it would break them. Until I saw this headline I assumed it was a matter of unpair/repair to get the working again, but it looks like no luck. They're no longer in my list of paired bulbs, and (I'll try when I get home) it doesn't sound like they can be paired anymore. For an example of the now-useless bulbs I have: http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Link-60W-Equivalent-Soft-White-2700K-A19-Connected-Home-LED-Light-Bulb-PSB19-SW27/205404345 http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Link-60W-Equivalent-Soft-White... GE isn't even selling these saying "get our cheaper bulbs and use them with Hue," they're marketed as being compatible with the Wink hub. But since it all works over the same open standard, you can use them on whichever base you like. This is like Apple saying "Laptops from other brands are no longer supported on Airport wireless networks so that we can ensure devices are fully compatible." It's a huge dick move on Philips's part.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  > This is like Apple saying "Laptops from other brands are no longer supported on Airport wireless networks so that we can ensure devices are fully compatible." Didn't Apple do that with Bluetooth once? I recall reading that at least one iteration of iPhones could not send files via Bluetooth to non-Apple devices.
  - TD-Linux 11y ago
    They still do it. For some Bluetooth device classes, you must get your device signed by Apple and use certain chips. One product I worked on had a dual Bluetooth and BLE stack - Bluetooth for Android, and BLE to circumvent the Apple limitations (BLE devices don't need to be signed).
  - odbol 11y ago
    iPhones can't even send files to other iPhones or Mac or anything over Bluetooth. In fact iPhone doesn't even HAVE files. It's 2015 and still the only way to share files from your iPhone is to plug it in.
xsmasher 11y ago
It looks like this was an update to the software in the Hue bridge? So people who THOUGHT they were buying a zigbee-based bridge now find that many zigbee products can no longer be paired with it.
kamaal 11y ago
>>In other words, Philips is refusing to build software, for free, to control their competitors' and/or counterfeit products. Not sure how this works. There are start ups out there who will do anything to get people to download and use their apps. Here you have several hundreds of thousands of users willing to download and use your app for free. Why chase them away? I think it was Bill Gates who said something to the order that if people were using Pirated operating systems, he would prefer they pirate Windows so that he could convert them to paying users someday.

by gregmac 11y ago

wvenable 11y ago

The slippery slope of "intellectual property" is so steep that even building interface-compatible products is now considered ripping something off. We've come a long way from the age of IBM compatibles and the PC revolution.

et2o 11y ago
Except that at the time IBM tried to prevent people from making compatible PCs.
- izacus 11y ago
  And we hugely benefited from their spectacular failure.
chkuendig 11y ago
On the other hand you could argue that while the pc revolution fueled on DOS licensing and IBM compatible BIOS was a a massive leap for the economy overall, it wasnt the best move for IBM in either the short nor the long term. Now they do the no-scales business of services and consulting...
- enjo 11y ago
  $13.5 Billion in yearly revenue is apparently low scale these days.
  - chkuendig 11y ago
    to clarify: I meant economies of scale. In services they are much much lover then in software licensing (example: microsoft in the 80ties and 90ies) or integrated products (example: apple now)
- wvenable 11y ago
  IBM made several pretty serious mistakes that lead to Microsoft's dominance on software licensing. But even on the hardware side they could have seen huge success but instead wasted time and mindshare creating the failed Microchannel architecture in order to regain control over the PC platform.
kamaal 11y ago
Coming soon... You won't be able to SSH into a server/box/machine, from a server/box/machine not built by the same manufacturer.
- aaronem 11y ago
  Honestly? I'm all in favor of hyperbole where it counts, but come on, now.

chc 11y ago

I don't see how you can say that this is both "not a problem" and "why you shouldn't buy into closed, walled-garden products." Best I can tell, the thing Philips did here that people are objecting to is turning Philips Hue into a walled garden where before it was not. So if this is an example of why you shouldn't buy into closed, walled-garden products, then it sounds like this product's owners have a legitimate problem with what Philips did here.

gregmac 11y ago
I unfortunately don't know the entire history here, but it really comes down to what was purchased. If Philips sold the Philips Hue hub as a generic controller for all Zigbee lights, then yeah, I'd agree: they essentially did a bait-and-switch after purchase, and this is totally wrong. Like class-action lawsuit wrong. If they sold it as a controller for Philips bulbs without mentioning Zigbee interoperability, then it's customer-hostile, to be sure, but not necessarily wrong, in my eyes.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

Laaw 11y ago

Would you be saying that if Google decided to block all non-google websites from working in Chrome?

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

draw_down 11y ago

> If not, well, that's why you shouldn't buy into closed, walled-garden products. Thanks, professor.

sp332 11y ago

The bulbs don't work without a hub. [Edit: doesn't have to be a Philips hub, but you still have to buy a new hub.] And Philips was really playing up interoperability and compatibility, so it's hard to look at that as a rip-off. Also it's not just "free software" - you have to pay $200 for the starter kit that includes the hub and 3 bulbs.

wlesieutre 11y ago

I wouldn't describe 3rd parties as "ripping off the design and protocol" when bulb <-> hub communication is done using the ZigBee Light Link protocol. Philips didn't develop that. Standard here: http://www.zigbee.org/?wpdmdl=2132 http://www.zigbee.org/?wpdmdl=2132 [pdf warning] And no, lights from other manufacturers (I have several from GE) no longer work via the Hue app or any of the 3rd party alternatives. I made the mistake of accepting Hue's "update your bridge" prompt already, not realizing it would break them. Until I saw this headline I assumed it was a matter of unpair/repair to get the working again, but it looks like no luck. They're no longer in my list of paired bulbs, and (I'll try when I get home) it doesn't sound like they can be paired anymore. For an example of the now-useless bulbs I have: http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Link-60W-Equivalent-Soft-White-2700K-A19-Connected-Home-LED-Light-Bulb-PSB19-SW27/205404345 http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Link-60W-Equivalent-Soft-White... GE isn't even selling these saying "get our cheaper bulbs and use them with Hue," they're marketed as being compatible with the Wink hub. But since it all works over the same open standard, you can use them on whichever base you like. This is like Apple saying "Laptops from other brands are no longer supported on Airport wireless networks so that we can ensure devices are fully compatible." It's a huge dick move on Philips's part.

TeMPOraL 11y ago
> This is like Apple saying "Laptops from other brands are no longer supported on Airport wireless networks so that we can ensure devices are fully compatible." Didn't Apple do that with Bluetooth once? I recall reading that at least one iteration of iPhones could not send files via Bluetooth to non-Apple devices.
- TD-Linux 11y ago
  They still do it. For some Bluetooth device classes, you must get your device signed by Apple and use certain chips. One product I worked on had a dual Bluetooth and BLE stack - Bluetooth for Android, and BLE to circumvent the Apple limitations (BLE devices don't need to be signed).
- odbol 11y ago
  iPhones can't even send files to other iPhones or Mac or anything over Bluetooth. In fact iPhone doesn't even HAVE files. It's 2015 and still the only way to share files from your iPhone is to plug it in.

xsmasher 11y ago

It looks like this was an update to the software in the Hue bridge? So people who THOUGHT they were buying a zigbee-based bridge now find that many zigbee products can no longer be paired with it.

kamaal 11y ago

>>In other words, Philips is refusing to build software, for free, to control their competitors' and/or counterfeit products. Not sure how this works. There are start ups out there who will do anything to get people to download and use their apps. Here you have several hundreds of thousands of users willing to download and use your app for free. Why chase them away? I think it was Bill Gates who said something to the order that if people were using Pirated operating systems, he would prefer they pirate Windows so that he could convert them to paying users someday.