10 ms·

German court rules in favor of the Wikimedia Foundation

107 points by edward 11y ago

ucaetano 11y ago
Good to see a balancing decision like this coming from Europe in general, and Germany in particular.
- nqzero 11y ago
  given the prevalence of age discrimination, it's disappointing that wikimedia didn't take the birth year down voluntarily yes, the data's available from other sources, but a prospective employer might not see that until after evaluating some other aspects of her work, and end up hiring her in a situation in which they wouldn't if they found her age immediately for that matter, i find wikimedia's prominent display of age for people in general to be a bit too forceful. is that really such a defining characteristic of a living person that it belongs in the highlight box ?
  - schoen 11y ago
    A lot of newspapers in the U.S. will print the age of the subject of a story or interview as a standard part of their style. https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+25%22 https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+25%22 https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+26%22 https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+26%22 https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+27%22 https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+27%22 https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+28%22 https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+28%22 https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+29%22 https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+29%22 https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+30%22 https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+30%22
    - edward 11y ago
      Nice demo. You could optimize it down to a single link: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q="said+smith%2C+18..75" https://www.google.co.uk/search?q="said+smith%2C+18..75"
      - schoen 11y ago
        Cool, thanks for the tip!
  - belorn 11y ago
    If you are a employer spending billable time looking up people on wikipedia and facebook, would you not also have the budget to purchase a e-book, pay access to a registry with public data or get credit/police records? The age of the person is very likely to be included somewhere, especially if include it in the book.
  - cooper12 11y ago
    Age itself doesn't really matter but I think having birth and death dates listed is really important because it tells you: 1) If the person is still living and 2) what era they lived in. Listing the age is just a natural byproduct of having the other two pieces of information and if it wasn't included conveniently in a box, could be easily calculated. I do agree that society in general puts a strange emphasis on age, as if whether someone is 30 years old matters vs someone who is 60. The only case where it's really relevant is that if they're living especially long, but then that would be mentioned in the article anyway.
    - awqrre 11y ago
      According to your 2 points, only date of death would be important.
      - mitchty 11y ago
        Knowing when they were born helps know what age they grew up in. Knowing someone died is great, but how old were they when they died is just as important if not more so.
  - Jedd 11y ago
    > given the prevalence of age discrimination, it's disappointing that wikimedia didn't take the birth year down voluntarily Consider how well the adoption of the Occlusion Method would work -- or rather, be received -- if applied to any other common adjective to discrimination. (Gender, (lack of) religion, race, redheadedness, etc) To be clear, I don't think trying to keep your age a secret is an effective way to either a) keep your age a secret, or b) decrease the prevalence of age discrimination. > for that matter, i find wikimedia's prominent display of age for people in general to be a bit too forceful. is that really such a defining characteristic of a living person that it belongs in the highlight box ? Who knows. It's two characters, though, that are easily skimmed over when reading, and presumably enough people find the information useful to warrant its presence.
franciscop 11y ago
I did not see that comming. Mainly from Wikimedia, since the tone is like they've won a war against Evil Corp for freedom when it looks like they just screw with this person's life. Yes, wikimedia might have the legal rights to do this, but as the awesome community and organization they are this feels completely odd.
- soperj 11y ago
  She took them to court, not the other way around.
- MichaelApproved 11y ago
  I don't see how they are screwing with her life. She, herself, published the info in a book. > The court recognized that a birth year made accessible by the Claimant herself through publicly available sources such as a book “would not remain limited to a small circle of people … but be accessible to a circle of users unlimited in theory.”
  - pluma 11y ago
    This. The court ruled against her because she demanded information she herself had previously made available to the general public to be removed based on privacy concerns. While I would maintain that "available to the general public" doesn't equal "available to everyone" (info on the web is more likely widely available than info in a print book) I agree with the court in that her claim against Wikimedia is invalid in this case.
  - matt4077 11y ago
    I think she rightfully lost, but I can see a few arguments here. Firstly, the book in question was her dissertation which might require a birth date as a matter of form. Secondly, there's a qualitative difference between a (possibly out-of-print) book and a website. In a way it's a rehash of the whole 'right to be forgotten' debate.
avar 11y ago
What if they had won? What bearing does suing the Wikimedia Foundation, a US entity, for material published in the US under US publishing laws? The German Wikipedia is published and maintained by a US entity, there's a local German Wikimedia chapter but it's not the publisher of the German Wikipedia. The article says that they sued the US entity (the Wikimedia Foundation Inc., not Wikimedia Deutschland), but doesn't explain this issue.
- paglia_s 11y ago
  I suppose they could have had that page changed / blocked in Germany. It's like any sort of physical product made in the US (or any other nation) and then sold in another country: it can be blocked if it's found in breach of local laws
  - avar 11y ago
    They'd have to block the entirety of Wikipedia since it uses https. It would be interesting to see what would happen with these sorts of issues if push came to shove. Usually the resort has been that local countries have threatened local editors living in those countries, e.g. there was a famous case with the French government threatening someone living in France who was writing about French nuclear communication outposts on the French Wikipedia (published in the U.S.).
- pluma 11y ago
  Same thing that happens to any other service provider: they might lose the ability to do business in Germany or even get blocked if they knowingly continue violating German law. Granted, for Wikimedia there would be less at stake than for, say, Facebook, but it should be obvious why an organization offering a localized service might be interested in staying within the bounds of the laws of whatever locale they are targeting. I doubt Wikimedia Deutschland would fare well if their US-based parent organisation disregarded rulings of German courts, especially when it comes to protecting the privacy of German citizens. Compare it to, say, US courts suing a EU or Chinese company. Sure, they don't necessarily have any means to enforce the ruling against the foreign company but it would likely be in the company's best interests to follow the ruling if they want to continue providing their services in the US.
walshemj 11y ago
The Public may be "interested" in Her age but is it in the public interest? - the two are not the same.
- avar 11y ago
  The issue under discussion in this lawsuit is that the subject of the article is claiming that her birthyear is private information, but the Wikipedia article's source for the birthyear is a book that she herself published[1]. I think some things are being lost in translation in this article, but generally speaking in many European privacy laws you can argue that something that's private information is in the public interest, or you can argue that it's not really private, either because the subject is a public person, or that it's a generally well-known fact. I think it's really a stretch to maintain that your birthyear is private information if you're a screenwriter/director who has a self-authored book saying what year you were born in. Your birthyear is public information at that point by any reasonable definition. 1. http://www.amazon.com/Tradition-lyrischen-Hofmannsthal-university-literature/dp/382040144X http://www.amazon.com/Tradition-lyrischen-Hofmannsthal-unive...
- BookmarkSaver 11y ago
  If you read the whole article and the portions of the ruling that it provides, you'd see that the court specifically addresses this. She has a widely known career producing mass commercial public works (documentaries) and they note that it is in the public interest to know what was produced at what age.
  - walshemj 11y ago
    Why? what is the public interest here? I don't need to know George Lucas's age when he made star wars.
    - jhasse 11y ago
      You probably also don't need to know all the other stuff on George Lucas' Wikipedia entry. But if you look him up (so you are interesting in information about him), I guess his age is one of the basic info you'd want to know, wouldn't you?

107 points by edward 11y ago

ucaetano 11y ago

Good to see a balancing decision like this coming from Europe in general, and Germany in particular.

nqzero 11y ago
given the prevalence of age discrimination, it's disappointing that wikimedia didn't take the birth year down voluntarily yes, the data's available from other sources, but a prospective employer might not see that until after evaluating some other aspects of her work, and end up hiring her in a situation in which they wouldn't if they found her age immediately for that matter, i find wikimedia's prominent display of age for people in general to be a bit too forceful. is that really such a defining characteristic of a living person that it belongs in the highlight box ?
- schoen 11y ago
  A lot of newspapers in the U.S. will print the age of the subject of a story or interview as a standard part of their style. https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+25%22 https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+25%22 https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+26%22 https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+26%22 https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+27%22 https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+27%22 https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+28%22 https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+28%22 https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+29%22 https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+29%22 https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+30%22 https://www.google.com/#q=%22said+smith%2C+30%22
  - edward 11y ago
    Nice demo. You could optimize it down to a single link: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q="said+smith%2C+18..75" https://www.google.co.uk/search?q="said+smith%2C+18..75"
    - schoen 11y ago
      Cool, thanks for the tip!
- belorn 11y ago
  If you are a employer spending billable time looking up people on wikipedia and facebook, would you not also have the budget to purchase a e-book, pay access to a registry with public data or get credit/police records? The age of the person is very likely to be included somewhere, especially if include it in the book.
- cooper12 11y ago
  Age itself doesn't really matter but I think having birth and death dates listed is really important because it tells you: 1) If the person is still living and 2) what era they lived in. Listing the age is just a natural byproduct of having the other two pieces of information and if it wasn't included conveniently in a box, could be easily calculated. I do agree that society in general puts a strange emphasis on age, as if whether someone is 30 years old matters vs someone who is 60. The only case where it's really relevant is that if they're living especially long, but then that would be mentioned in the article anyway.
  - awqrre 11y ago
    According to your 2 points, only date of death would be important.
    - mitchty 11y ago
      Knowing when they were born helps know what age they grew up in. Knowing someone died is great, but how old were they when they died is just as important if not more so.
- Jedd 11y ago
  > given the prevalence of age discrimination, it's disappointing that wikimedia didn't take the birth year down voluntarily Consider how well the adoption of the Occlusion Method would work -- or rather, be received -- if applied to any other common adjective to discrimination. (Gender, (lack of) religion, race, redheadedness, etc) To be clear, I don't think trying to keep your age a secret is an effective way to either a) keep your age a secret, or b) decrease the prevalence of age discrimination. > for that matter, i find wikimedia's prominent display of age for people in general to be a bit too forceful. is that really such a defining characteristic of a living person that it belongs in the highlight box ? Who knows. It's two characters, though, that are easily skimmed over when reading, and presumably enough people find the information useful to warrant its presence.

franciscop 11y ago

I did not see that comming. Mainly from Wikimedia, since the tone is like they've won a war against Evil Corp for freedom when it looks like they just screw with this person's life. Yes, wikimedia might have the legal rights to do this, but as the awesome community and organization they are this feels completely odd.

soperj 11y ago
She took them to court, not the other way around.
MichaelApproved 11y ago
I don't see how they are screwing with her life. She, herself, published the info in a book. > The court recognized that a birth year made accessible by the Claimant herself through publicly available sources such as a book “would not remain limited to a small circle of people … but be accessible to a circle of users unlimited in theory.”
- pluma 11y ago
  This. The court ruled against her because she demanded information she herself had previously made available to the general public to be removed based on privacy concerns. While I would maintain that "available to the general public" doesn't equal "available to everyone" (info on the web is more likely widely available than info in a print book) I agree with the court in that her claim against Wikimedia is invalid in this case.
- matt4077 11y ago
  I think she rightfully lost, but I can see a few arguments here. Firstly, the book in question was her dissertation which might require a birth date as a matter of form. Secondly, there's a qualitative difference between a (possibly out-of-print) book and a website. In a way it's a rehash of the whole 'right to be forgotten' debate.

avar 11y ago

What if they had won? What bearing does suing the Wikimedia Foundation, a US entity, for material published in the US under US publishing laws? The German Wikipedia is published and maintained by a US entity, there's a local German Wikimedia chapter but it's not the publisher of the German Wikipedia. The article says that they sued the US entity (the Wikimedia Foundation Inc., not Wikimedia Deutschland), but doesn't explain this issue.

paglia_s 11y ago
I suppose they could have had that page changed / blocked in Germany. It's like any sort of physical product made in the US (or any other nation) and then sold in another country: it can be blocked if it's found in breach of local laws
- avar 11y ago
  They'd have to block the entirety of Wikipedia since it uses https. It would be interesting to see what would happen with these sorts of issues if push came to shove. Usually the resort has been that local countries have threatened local editors living in those countries, e.g. there was a famous case with the French government threatening someone living in France who was writing about French nuclear communication outposts on the French Wikipedia (published in the U.S.).
pluma 11y ago
Same thing that happens to any other service provider: they might lose the ability to do business in Germany or even get blocked if they knowingly continue violating German law. Granted, for Wikimedia there would be less at stake than for, say, Facebook, but it should be obvious why an organization offering a localized service might be interested in staying within the bounds of the laws of whatever locale they are targeting. I doubt Wikimedia Deutschland would fare well if their US-based parent organisation disregarded rulings of German courts, especially when it comes to protecting the privacy of German citizens. Compare it to, say, US courts suing a EU or Chinese company. Sure, they don't necessarily have any means to enforce the ruling against the foreign company but it would likely be in the company's best interests to follow the ruling if they want to continue providing their services in the US.

walshemj 11y ago

The Public may be "interested" in Her age but is it in the public interest? - the two are not the same.

avar 11y ago
The issue under discussion in this lawsuit is that the subject of the article is claiming that her birthyear is private information, but the Wikipedia article's source for the birthyear is a book that she herself published[1]. I think some things are being lost in translation in this article, but generally speaking in many European privacy laws you can argue that something that's private information is in the public interest, or you can argue that it's not really private, either because the subject is a public person, or that it's a generally well-known fact. I think it's really a stretch to maintain that your birthyear is private information if you're a screenwriter/director who has a self-authored book saying what year you were born in. Your birthyear is public information at that point by any reasonable definition. 1. http://www.amazon.com/Tradition-lyrischen-Hofmannsthal-university-literature/dp/382040144X http://www.amazon.com/Tradition-lyrischen-Hofmannsthal-unive...
BookmarkSaver 11y ago
If you read the whole article and the portions of the ruling that it provides, you'd see that the court specifically addresses this. She has a widely known career producing mass commercial public works (documentaries) and they note that it is in the public interest to know what was produced at what age.
- walshemj 11y ago
  Why? what is the public interest here? I don't need to know George Lucas's age when he made star wars.
  - jhasse 11y ago
    You probably also don't need to know all the other stuff on George Lucas' Wikipedia entry. But if you look him up (so you are interesting in information about him), I guess his age is one of the basic info you'd want to know, wouldn't you?