5 ms·

Not just that, but I can't wait for the day I can only rent my appliances and have to have a monthly subscription to some GE "Smart Appliance Network" for them

Not just that, but I can't wait for the day I can only rent my appliances and have to have a monthly subscription to some GE "Smart Appliance Network" for them to even work.

jimmaswell 11y ago
I feel like people would just not buy these theoretical ridiculous appliances and just stay with older ones until the appliance manufacturers started making normal appliances again.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  Like they don't buy e-books, or smart TVs? Like they didn't buy that cloud-connected laser cutter that'll brick itself when its makers go out of business[0]? It's been proven time and again that people buy against their best interest; that's why this business model is becoming popular. [0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10272483 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10272483
  - jdmichal 11y ago
    To be fair, smart TVs still work as TVs, even if the entire "smart" portion is broken. I'm entertaining buying a new TV soon, since mine is on the out after almost 10 years. I'd prefer to buy a non-smart TV, but honestly all the top models include it now, so it's pretty much unavoidable.
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      You've just described how this scenario most likely will play out with othe appliances if producers decide to go the rental way. People may stay with their old ones... until they break, then it's time to buy a new one, but there's no non-"smart" appliance on the market anymore.
      - ethbro 11y ago
        Based on current observation, they'll choose to buy the "smart" tv that comes with built-in overlay advertisements because it's $X cheaper.
      - shostack 11y ago
        Exactly. To give a related example...look at Windows 10. I want to buy a new computer and will be in the market very soon. But I'm desperately clinging to my Windows 7 OS, and worried I won't be able to find something that ISN'T Windows 10. In fact, I have newfound urgency around this because I'll bet very soon I won't be able to find any Windows 8 computers on the market.
        dragonwriter 11y ago
        > I want to buy a new computer and will be in the market very soon. But I'm desperately clinging to my Windows 7 OS, and worried I won't be able to find something that ISN'T Windows 10. Its pretty easy to find computers that aren't Windows 10 (e.g., OS X machines are readily available, as are Chromebooks, and there are even sold-with-Linux computers); its harder to find ones that are Windows-but-not-10, but that's a different thing.
        PhantomGremlin 11y ago
        its harder to find ones that are Windows-but-not-10 But they're still readily available. I just checked a Dell Precision tower workstation and it comes by default with Win 7. The Dell Optiplex Mini Tower comes by default with Win 8.1, but Win 7 is an easily selected choice. Still, I've been buying OS X machines exclusively for over a decade. There's not a lot that Windows offers me, except their nice Freecell game. But I'm not a FPS gamer, so that probably makes a big difference.
        shostack 11y ago
        I'm a PC gamer, and that is honestly the only reason I am still on Windows.
    - OJFord 11y ago
      @Temporal - but there's no rent to use a 'smart' TV. You don't have to subscribe to Netflix or Amazon Prime just because those services are integrated with your TV. You can just buy it, ignore what you don't want, and use it 'traditionally' (though still digitally..).
      - steve-howard 11y ago
        And remember to turn off the ads they layer over the broadcast.
    - rsync 11y ago
      "To be fair, smart TVs still work as TVs, even if the entire "smart" portion is broken. I'm entertaining buying a new TV soon, since mine is on the out after almost 10 years. I'd prefer to buy a non-smart TV, but honestly all the top models include it now, so it's pretty much unavoidable." You can opt out of using the smart features, but the presence of wifi and bluetooth stacks and cameras and microphones means that you are living with a long list of vulnerabilities and potential intrusive/abusive behavior. The good news is, display manufacturers all make very, very high end models at relatively low prices without any smart features or gizmos at all: they are called signage displays. Think of the screens at the airport with the tiny bezels ... you can buy those. They're awesome.
      - snowwrestler 11y ago
        But aren't they way more expensive for given specs than regular consumer TVs? I looked one time and they were like twice the price for a given size/resolution. I couldn't tell if that was because they are engineered to be on all the time, or if manufacturers just jack up the list price so they can maintain margin on discounted bulk pricing for 3,000 panels or whatever.
      - ethbro 11y ago
        > You can opt out of using the smart features, but the presence of wifi and bluetooth stacks and cameras and microphones means that you are living with a long list of vulnerabilities and potential intrusive/abusive behavior. 2020's hottest new major: Archaeological Computer Security
      - jdcarter 11y ago
        > ...the presence of wifi and bluetooth stacks and cameras and microphones means that you are living with a long list of vulnerabilities... No, you just turn those off. I bought a TV recently and didn't have any option (for this particular model line) of getting a "non-smart" version. I simply turned off the TV's networking. The only cables attached to the TV are power and HDMI, so it's effectively a dumb TV with zero attack surface.
- jdmichal 11y ago
  It's already happening to John Deere, since they started claiming DCMA protections on their tractors to prevent DIY repairs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Deere#Controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Deere#Controversies
- shostack 11y ago
  They might. Or more likely you'd see early adopters buying these, then gradually companies would shift more and more of their models to this approach. Suddenly, only the ugly, low-end crappy models work the "traditional way." Then -BAM-, anyone who wants a decent looking model with decent functionality is stuck paying rent. Companies have many consumer-hostile tools to force people to do things that is against their best interest. And mark my words they are salivating at the thought of all that recurring revenue.
  - jimmaswell 11y ago
    >a decent looking model with decent functionality There will be tons of such appliances from the mid 20th century and onwards available on craigslist, flea markets, probably even ebay amaon et al. for quite a while.
    - shostack 11y ago
      Joe Middle-class Consumer does not want to buy their appliances from Craigslist, flea markets, etc. The mass market audience for appliances want to buy new in a store, with a warranty, etc. I fully expect to see a gradual boiling of the frog. First it will be free features and benefits tied to an online account, then it will be new features that are only part of a subscription plan, and once they have critical mass, killing the free tier or making it near worthless. Sure there might be a market for used devices, but again, it will be the minority. The rest of the marketplace will be screwed.
- redthrowaway 11y ago
  I'm still waiting for them to stop making 3D movies so I can watch a normal movie like a normal person. Avatar was 6 years ago. The joke stopped being funny back when AirBnB was still about blow-up mattresses.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    There are lots of non-3D movies made; the fact that 3D movies are also made doesn't stop you from watching a "normal movie" like a "normal person".
    - redthrowaway 11y ago
      The fact that no theatre nearby will show a movie that has a 3D version in non-3D does.
      - dragonwriter 11y ago
        Plenty of movies are made only in non-3D versions, so, no, that doesn't either. If no theater around you shows non-3D movies at all, that might, but that's more a consequence of your decision to live in an area where 3D movies are apparently unusually popular (or non-3D movies unusually unpopular) than anything else.
  - jimmaswell 11y ago
    Even if a movie was made only in 3D, you can buy or make special 3D glasses that show you 2D by having both eyes the same polarization filter.

Not just that, but I can't wait for the day I can only rent my appliances and have to have a monthly subscription to some GE "Smart Appliance Network" for them to even work.

jimmaswell 11y ago

I feel like people would just not buy these theoretical ridiculous appliances and just stay with older ones until the appliance manufacturers started making normal appliances again.

TeMPOraL 11y ago
Like they don't buy e-books, or smart TVs? Like they didn't buy that cloud-connected laser cutter that'll brick itself when its makers go out of business[0]? It's been proven time and again that people buy against their best interest; that's why this business model is becoming popular. [0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10272483 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10272483
- jdmichal 11y ago
  To be fair, smart TVs still work as TVs, even if the entire "smart" portion is broken. I'm entertaining buying a new TV soon, since mine is on the out after almost 10 years. I'd prefer to buy a non-smart TV, but honestly all the top models include it now, so it's pretty much unavoidable.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    You've just described how this scenario most likely will play out with othe appliances if producers decide to go the rental way. People may stay with their old ones... until they break, then it's time to buy a new one, but there's no non-"smart" appliance on the market anymore.
    - ethbro 11y ago
      Based on current observation, they'll choose to buy the "smart" tv that comes with built-in overlay advertisements because it's $X cheaper.
    - shostack 11y ago
      Exactly. To give a related example...look at Windows 10. I want to buy a new computer and will be in the market very soon. But I'm desperately clinging to my Windows 7 OS, and worried I won't be able to find something that ISN'T Windows 10. In fact, I have newfound urgency around this because I'll bet very soon I won't be able to find any Windows 8 computers on the market.
      - dragonwriter 11y ago
        > I want to buy a new computer and will be in the market very soon. But I'm desperately clinging to my Windows 7 OS, and worried I won't be able to find something that ISN'T Windows 10. Its pretty easy to find computers that aren't Windows 10 (e.g., OS X machines are readily available, as are Chromebooks, and there are even sold-with-Linux computers); its harder to find ones that are Windows-but-not-10, but that's a different thing.
        PhantomGremlin 11y ago
        its harder to find ones that are Windows-but-not-10 But they're still readily available. I just checked a Dell Precision tower workstation and it comes by default with Win 7. The Dell Optiplex Mini Tower comes by default with Win 8.1, but Win 7 is an easily selected choice. Still, I've been buying OS X machines exclusively for over a decade. There's not a lot that Windows offers me, except their nice Freecell game. But I'm not a FPS gamer, so that probably makes a big difference.
        shostack 11y ago
        I'm a PC gamer, and that is honestly the only reason I am still on Windows.
  - OJFord 11y ago
    @Temporal - but there's no rent to use a 'smart' TV. You don't have to subscribe to Netflix or Amazon Prime just because those services are integrated with your TV. You can just buy it, ignore what you don't want, and use it 'traditionally' (though still digitally..).
    - steve-howard 11y ago
      And remember to turn off the ads they layer over the broadcast.
  - rsync 11y ago
    "To be fair, smart TVs still work as TVs, even if the entire "smart" portion is broken. I'm entertaining buying a new TV soon, since mine is on the out after almost 10 years. I'd prefer to buy a non-smart TV, but honestly all the top models include it now, so it's pretty much unavoidable." You can opt out of using the smart features, but the presence of wifi and bluetooth stacks and cameras and microphones means that you are living with a long list of vulnerabilities and potential intrusive/abusive behavior. The good news is, display manufacturers all make very, very high end models at relatively low prices without any smart features or gizmos at all: they are called signage displays. Think of the screens at the airport with the tiny bezels ... you can buy those. They're awesome.
    - snowwrestler 11y ago
      But aren't they way more expensive for given specs than regular consumer TVs? I looked one time and they were like twice the price for a given size/resolution. I couldn't tell if that was because they are engineered to be on all the time, or if manufacturers just jack up the list price so they can maintain margin on discounted bulk pricing for 3,000 panels or whatever.
    - ethbro 11y ago
      > You can opt out of using the smart features, but the presence of wifi and bluetooth stacks and cameras and microphones means that you are living with a long list of vulnerabilities and potential intrusive/abusive behavior. 2020's hottest new major: Archaeological Computer Security
    - jdcarter 11y ago
      > ...the presence of wifi and bluetooth stacks and cameras and microphones means that you are living with a long list of vulnerabilities... No, you just turn those off. I bought a TV recently and didn't have any option (for this particular model line) of getting a "non-smart" version. I simply turned off the TV's networking. The only cables attached to the TV are power and HDMI, so it's effectively a dumb TV with zero attack surface.
jdmichal 11y ago
It's already happening to John Deere, since they started claiming DCMA protections on their tractors to prevent DIY repairs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Deere#Controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Deere#Controversies
shostack 11y ago
They might. Or more likely you'd see early adopters buying these, then gradually companies would shift more and more of their models to this approach. Suddenly, only the ugly, low-end crappy models work the "traditional way." Then -BAM-, anyone who wants a decent looking model with decent functionality is stuck paying rent. Companies have many consumer-hostile tools to force people to do things that is against their best interest. And mark my words they are salivating at the thought of all that recurring revenue.
- jimmaswell 11y ago
  >a decent looking model with decent functionality There will be tons of such appliances from the mid 20th century and onwards available on craigslist, flea markets, probably even ebay amaon et al. for quite a while.
  - shostack 11y ago
    Joe Middle-class Consumer does not want to buy their appliances from Craigslist, flea markets, etc. The mass market audience for appliances want to buy new in a store, with a warranty, etc. I fully expect to see a gradual boiling of the frog. First it will be free features and benefits tied to an online account, then it will be new features that are only part of a subscription plan, and once they have critical mass, killing the free tier or making it near worthless. Sure there might be a market for used devices, but again, it will be the minority. The rest of the marketplace will be screwed.
redthrowaway 11y ago
I'm still waiting for them to stop making 3D movies so I can watch a normal movie like a normal person. Avatar was 6 years ago. The joke stopped being funny back when AirBnB was still about blow-up mattresses.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  There are lots of non-3D movies made; the fact that 3D movies are also made doesn't stop you from watching a "normal movie" like a "normal person".
  - redthrowaway 11y ago
    The fact that no theatre nearby will show a movie that has a 3D version in non-3D does.
    - dragonwriter 11y ago
      Plenty of movies are made only in non-3D versions, so, no, that doesn't either. If no theater around you shows non-3D movies at all, that might, but that's more a consequence of your decision to live in an area where 3D movies are apparently unusually popular (or non-3D movies unusually unpopular) than anything else.
- jimmaswell 11y ago
  Even if a movie was made only in 3D, you can buy or make special 3D glasses that show you 2D by having both eyes the same polarization filter.