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When I listened to this RadioLab podcast[1], I was shocked at how recently that colonial atrocities in Africa occurred on the part of western governments. Thoug

When I listened to this RadioLab podcast[1], I was shocked at how recently that colonial atrocities in Africa occurred on the part of western governments. Though the 60s are 50+ years ago, I think they could still be considered part of the modern age of "today". [1]http://www.radiolab.org/story/mau-mau/ http://www.radiolab.org/story/mau-mau/ Edit: err, not 70+ years ago, don't do simple math on the fly...

stuxnet79 11y ago
Nobody ever hears about this. British were adept at keeping their own atrocities under wraps, all the while decrying the actions of Germans - the so called "moral whipping boy" of Europe.
selimthegrim 11y ago
The 60s are 70+ years ago? What's your relativistic velocity?
- digikata 11y ago
  Relative velocity too high, fingers were going faster than my brain...
IkmoIkmo 11y ago
How are the 60s 70+ years ago? Take the Algerian independence struggle which was long and harsh, culminating in a final war into the early 1960s leaving hundreds of thousands (probably over a million) dead. France committed some ridiculous levels of atrocities, this was 53 years ago, my dad was already an adult at the time and he was raised in a country where he wasn't allowed to go to school because he was a native. Literally a generation ago in some families like mine. (I'm just 25 years old by the way). But yeah I agree, it is pretty shocking and often untold. We're all aware of the colonial era, mostly aware of the low levels of autonomy for the local population, the desire for self-determination and the final years of the eventual independence movement. But the atrocities are usually glossed over, you'll scarcely be confronted with pictures of French or Spanish soldiers holding the heads of decapitated freedom fighters in school (partially understandable, of course), although it was pretty common. Somehow we pretend like only ISIS is capable of doing something like that. I mean take Jean-Marie le Pen, father (and indeed still alive) of Marine le Pen who just doubled her seats in a record election result for her party Front National in France, he's been accused of torture of Algerians in credible French newspapers and books, none of this is all that long ago. And hell that's in Algeria, a lot of people don't know of things like the Paris Massacre, where French protesters were killed and thrown in the Seine, some of them tortured, by government forces. That's just absolutely shocking, the moment you kill civilians and throw them in the river (i.e. they're not even pretending these civilians were a threat, were killed in self-defence, then brought in for identification, investigation and ultimately buried by family... but rather just murdered and ditched in the nearest river), you know something is really fucked up and indeed it feels very recent. Anyway, the colonial atrocities are one thing, but the effects of colonialism are still very much felt today. Take Angola for example, independent in 1975 (quite recent) after a 13 year (nasty) war for independence, but embroiled right after in a civil war that ended only in 2002, lasting more than 25 years. The latter is in many ways a product of the former. A bit simplistic of course, but ultimately the colonial story is one of arbitrary geographical borders being drawn, exploitation, a bloody independence movement, and a post-colonial consolidation/playing-out of the various ethnic groups that were arbitrarily grouped together in a new nation state, who often have different cultures, political ideas and are all driven by their own desire for self-determination. This process is bloody, too, it's like grouping the US, Canada and Mexico in one big area, having them partially mingle for a century, and then allowing their independence once more, having them fight for the establishment of new borders of their new nation states. It's not pretty, especially when you do it in some of the poorest and least educated areas in the world. It's really sad, but the post-colonial era too is one in which we have more blame than we behave like we do.
- selimthegrim 11y ago
  I was a little ticked off when the media was talking about the Paris attacks recently as the highest casualty event in Paris since WWII. I wondered if all those Algerians in 1961 didn't count as people....
millermp12 11y ago
Rank African countries by "years of colonization" then rank another list by any metric like literacy, mortality, homicide rates, GDP per capita, etc. I think the case is much stronger that it was _lack_ of colonization in Africa that was the problem. But these are unthinkable thoughts...

stuxnet79 11y ago

Nobody ever hears about this. British were adept at keeping their own atrocities under wraps, all the while decrying the actions of Germans - the so called "moral whipping boy" of Europe.

selimthegrim 11y ago

The 60s are 70+ years ago? What's your relativistic velocity?

digikata 11y ago
Relative velocity too high, fingers were going faster than my brain...

IkmoIkmo 11y ago

How are the 60s 70+ years ago? Take the Algerian independence struggle which was long and harsh, culminating in a final war into the early 1960s leaving hundreds of thousands (probably over a million) dead. France committed some ridiculous levels of atrocities, this was 53 years ago, my dad was already an adult at the time and he was raised in a country where he wasn't allowed to go to school because he was a native. Literally a generation ago in some families like mine. (I'm just 25 years old by the way). But yeah I agree, it is pretty shocking and often untold. We're all aware of the colonial era, mostly aware of the low levels of autonomy for the local population, the desire for self-determination and the final years of the eventual independence movement. But the atrocities are usually glossed over, you'll scarcely be confronted with pictures of French or Spanish soldiers holding the heads of decapitated freedom fighters in school (partially understandable, of course), although it was pretty common. Somehow we pretend like only ISIS is capable of doing something like that. I mean take Jean-Marie le Pen, father (and indeed still alive) of Marine le Pen who just doubled her seats in a record election result for her party Front National in France, he's been accused of torture of Algerians in credible French newspapers and books, none of this is all that long ago. And hell that's in Algeria, a lot of people don't know of things like the Paris Massacre, where French protesters were killed and thrown in the Seine, some of them tortured, by government forces. That's just absolutely shocking, the moment you kill civilians and throw them in the river (i.e. they're not even pretending these civilians were a threat, were killed in self-defence, then brought in for identification, investigation and ultimately buried by family... but rather just murdered and ditched in the nearest river), you know something is really fucked up and indeed it feels very recent. Anyway, the colonial atrocities are one thing, but the effects of colonialism are still very much felt today. Take Angola for example, independent in 1975 (quite recent) after a 13 year (nasty) war for independence, but embroiled right after in a civil war that ended only in 2002, lasting more than 25 years. The latter is in many ways a product of the former. A bit simplistic of course, but ultimately the colonial story is one of arbitrary geographical borders being drawn, exploitation, a bloody independence movement, and a post-colonial consolidation/playing-out of the various ethnic groups that were arbitrarily grouped together in a new nation state, who often have different cultures, political ideas and are all driven by their own desire for self-determination. This process is bloody, too, it's like grouping the US, Canada and Mexico in one big area, having them partially mingle for a century, and then allowing their independence once more, having them fight for the establishment of new borders of their new nation states. It's not pretty, especially when you do it in some of the poorest and least educated areas in the world. It's really sad, but the post-colonial era too is one in which we have more blame than we behave like we do.

selimthegrim 11y ago
I was a little ticked off when the media was talking about the Paris attacks recently as the highest casualty event in Paris since WWII. I wondered if all those Algerians in 1961 didn't count as people....

millermp12 11y ago

Rank African countries by "years of colonization" then rank another list by any metric like literacy, mortality, homicide rates, GDP per capita, etc. I think the case is much stronger that it was _lack_ of colonization in Africa that was the problem. But these are unthinkable thoughts...