5 ms·

It's not that I consider it unethical: it's not wrong, but it does seem like taking the easy way out, rather than making your product strong enough to stand sol

by Psyonic 17y ago

It's not that I consider it unethical: it's not wrong, but it does seem like taking the easy way out, rather than making your product strong enough to stand solidly on its own. Then again, you can't always predict how things will play out. For instance, I don't think Apple intended for the iPod and later the iPhone to target the narcissist within, but as they became popular, they became status symbols, and it happened anyway (and less artificially). To the latter half of your response, I'm working on it. Even if my original comment was a bit snarky, it was a still a prompt for conversation on the matter. I'm well aware of the popularity of things like this (Farmville, anyone?), and I'm trying to understand it. I'd be interested in your response to my suggestion that people are much more obvious about this online. While people certainly do things for status in the real world, almost all would take offense if you gave them a gold star for getting a date. Why are people so willing to cede authority (judgment) to a website? The game element doesn't seem to explain it all.

DenisM 17y ago
What is the opposite of the "easy way out" for you? In other words, what is your true goal? You seem to want both a financially successful product, and one that is "strong to stand on its own". My spidey senses are telling me there is a lot of baggage in that latter quote - it looks like you want your contributions to the world to be not just financially successful but also noble in a way, or real-manly (the opposite of "the easy way out"). These two are very different goals - one is of financial independence and the other one is of advancing up the Maslow's hierarchy to "Esteem" level. There are several ways to go about it: 1) Give up on the money part and set about satisfying the Esteem need by getting a very esteemed job (which may not pay very well) - policeman, polar explorer that kind of thing. 2) Get the Maslow's urge under control via artificial means, and remain absolutely cold-blooded in business. When you make enough money the urge will let go of you, and even if not you will have means and training to attack a harder, worthier problem. The first business is not the end of life. 3) Keep building the business but surrender to the urge and let it control you. It will give you a lot of staying power, but it will also periodically send you on the wild goose chase (like writing your own high-scale online storage because real men only eat what they kill). It's a very round-about way about getting there.
- Psyonic 17y ago
  Very insightful breakdown. I guess I still feel it must be possible to reconcile the two goals, but I have a feeling you may be right that I should try and put one off for now. Food for thought, certainly. I really appreciate you discussing this with me
  - DenisM 17y ago
    I was explaining it to myself as much as to you and I am thankful for the opportunity. That's really the only case when I am compelled to speak of such things - to gain more clarity myself. I am not entirely over this either - far form it. I do iPhone apps with a loyal user base but modest revenue, while my friend is making crazy money on affiliate marketing. I should really just go and join him, yet I can't bring myself to do it. Unlike you I don't find appealing to users base instincts beneath me, to the contrary I think that emotional engagement is something people crave and I must provide to create a great product. The basic problem however is similar - I have a seemingly more profitable opportunity that I am not pursuing for reasons that are not entirely rational.
    - Psyonic 17y ago
      Funny... your situation is very similar to mine, actually. I also have friends/acquaintances making big bucks with affiliate marketing, and I've dabbled in it myself, but I can never seem to muster enough enthusiasm to put much work into it. I can't help feeling like I'm not really adding value, though I do think AM can add value, if done right. Also, I wouldn't be so quick to assume you're not acting rationally. Not robotic, certainly, but a rational human would consider the way his work makes him feel, etc. I realize this may seem contradictory, as rational/emotional are often seen as opposites, but we are human and we have emotions, so ignoring them entirely must be irrational. In other words, working towards maximum profit is not necessarily rational. I'm torn on appealing to base instincts... I believe it can enhance an experience, but I have a hard time stomaching out-right manipulation. Naturally there is room in the middle, but I guess it's up to each of us to draw that line for ourselves.
DenisM 17y ago
There are many explanations about real life vs online: 1. In RL you're a peer and assigning someone a rating you are attempting to establish your dominant position where none existed before. A web site is not a peer so the idea of ceding authority to it is less outrageous. 2. Website is a game. This induces an age regression - people feel like children who get scores assigned to them (their work) and get their worthiness judged based on those scores. To that end it helps to make things fun, easy, brightly colored, with large letters and not too much time commitment. 3. There is a "suspension of disbelief" going on there to help with #2 - like in a movie. 4. Web site has already assigned judgment to someone people perceive as their peers. Thus peer's acceptance of such judgment creates social proof of authority. 5. For some reason people discount opinion of a single, known peer after some time taking it as a given, and then seek validation from strangers. 6. Web site has an oracle-like property to it - it knows things about you. This goes deeper into horoscopes and stuff. You could pull it off yourself it you bothered to learn horoscoping techniques - basically telling people what they want to hear about themselves.

by Psyonic 17y ago

DenisM 17y ago

What is the opposite of the "easy way out" for you? In other words, what is your true goal? You seem to want both a financially successful product, and one that is "strong to stand on its own". My spidey senses are telling me there is a lot of baggage in that latter quote - it looks like you want your contributions to the world to be not just financially successful but also noble in a way, or real-manly (the opposite of "the easy way out"). These two are very different goals - one is of financial independence and the other one is of advancing up the Maslow's hierarchy to "Esteem" level. There are several ways to go about it: 1) Give up on the money part and set about satisfying the Esteem need by getting a very esteemed job (which may not pay very well) - policeman, polar explorer that kind of thing. 2) Get the Maslow's urge under control via artificial means, and remain absolutely cold-blooded in business. When you make enough money the urge will let go of you, and even if not you will have means and training to attack a harder, worthier problem. The first business is not the end of life. 3) Keep building the business but surrender to the urge and let it control you. It will give you a lot of staying power, but it will also periodically send you on the wild goose chase (like writing your own high-scale online storage because real men only eat what they kill). It's a very round-about way about getting there.

Psyonic 17y ago
Very insightful breakdown. I guess I still feel it must be possible to reconcile the two goals, but I have a feeling you may be right that I should try and put one off for now. Food for thought, certainly. I really appreciate you discussing this with me
- DenisM 17y ago
  I was explaining it to myself as much as to you and I am thankful for the opportunity. That's really the only case when I am compelled to speak of such things - to gain more clarity myself. I am not entirely over this either - far form it. I do iPhone apps with a loyal user base but modest revenue, while my friend is making crazy money on affiliate marketing. I should really just go and join him, yet I can't bring myself to do it. Unlike you I don't find appealing to users base instincts beneath me, to the contrary I think that emotional engagement is something people crave and I must provide to create a great product. The basic problem however is similar - I have a seemingly more profitable opportunity that I am not pursuing for reasons that are not entirely rational.
  - Psyonic 17y ago
    Funny... your situation is very similar to mine, actually. I also have friends/acquaintances making big bucks with affiliate marketing, and I've dabbled in it myself, but I can never seem to muster enough enthusiasm to put much work into it. I can't help feeling like I'm not really adding value, though I do think AM can add value, if done right. Also, I wouldn't be so quick to assume you're not acting rationally. Not robotic, certainly, but a rational human would consider the way his work makes him feel, etc. I realize this may seem contradictory, as rational/emotional are often seen as opposites, but we are human and we have emotions, so ignoring them entirely must be irrational. In other words, working towards maximum profit is not necessarily rational. I'm torn on appealing to base instincts... I believe it can enhance an experience, but I have a hard time stomaching out-right manipulation. Naturally there is room in the middle, but I guess it's up to each of us to draw that line for ourselves.

DenisM 17y ago

There are many explanations about real life vs online: 1. In RL you're a peer and assigning someone a rating you are attempting to establish your dominant position where none existed before. A web site is not a peer so the idea of ceding authority to it is less outrageous. 2. Website is a game. This induces an age regression - people feel like children who get scores assigned to them (their work) and get their worthiness judged based on those scores. To that end it helps to make things fun, easy, brightly colored, with large letters and not too much time commitment. 3. There is a "suspension of disbelief" going on there to help with #2 - like in a movie. 4. Web site has already assigned judgment to someone people perceive as their peers. Thus peer's acceptance of such judgment creates social proof of authority. 5. For some reason people discount opinion of a single, known peer after some time taking it as a given, and then seek validation from strangers. 6. Web site has an oracle-like property to it - it knows things about you. This goes deeper into horoscopes and stuff. You could pull it off yourself it you bothered to learn horoscoping techniques - basically telling people what they want to hear about themselves.