6 ms·

You are right about the slowness, that's not exactly the point I wanted to make. Anyway, calling wordpress or drupal "high performance" is a joke.

by mahouse 11y ago

mschuster91 11y ago
> Anyway, calling wordpress or drupal "high performance" is a joke. Well, these two platforms are by far the leader in the CMS space. It's either usability, ease of administration or speed that keeps people using WP/Drupal over alternatives in other languages/frameworks.
- creshal 11y ago
  Seeing it from the point of view of a company with a few hundred Wordpress deployments: Definitely usability (if you want laypersons to be able to author content, there's little competition), largely availability of plugins, a bit ease of administration (it's getting better), but definitely not speed. Wordpress is so mindbogglingly slow that we have to use excessive amounts of caching for anything even remotely resembling medium traffic.
  - sbarre 11y ago
    Honest question: do you not consider caching to be a normal part of a dynamic web application? I've never worked with a CMS or web app - in any language - that didn't include caching as a core part of the performance layer once it reaches a certain amount of load.. I'm sure it's possible, with enough money to throw at hardware, to scale without it, but why would you? Caching is a completely valid optimization approach in my view..
    - mschuster91 11y ago
      Well Wordpress long came without any caching at all, dunno if that's changed by now. Drupal in contrast comes with its own DB caching. Both can be plugged into memcache and friends, and if done right you can put in Cloudflare or other frontend caching systems in front. Biggest performance +1, though, is enabling php opcache.
    - creshal 11y ago
      > Honest question: do you not consider caching to be a normal part of a dynamic web application? We should not be needing bare metal servers with 4 GHz CPUs to serve a non-interactive site with ~4000 visitors a day. Yet, without full-page caching (i.e., bypass Wordpress/PHP entirely and serve .html files straight from nginx), the servers would melt under the load. Rendering twenty images and forty text fields out of database should not take several seconds on a modern server. Yet, Wordpress has no problems taking a dozen seconds even under light load conditions – mind you, that's time purely spent in PHP, for rendering, not on the database.
      - sbarre 11y ago
        Wow.. So I work with Wordpress on a day to day basis as well and we don't see anything like this.. We have pretty DB-heavy sites (lots of ACF Pro fields and lots of relationships) and we're handling bigger loads than that, on much smaller virtual hardware.. I'm not making any specific value statement about your setup here, I'm just surprised by what you're seeing on your end.
        mschuster91 11y ago
        I guess it's a lack of opcache plus no SSD and no mysql tuning. Debian/Ubuntu defaults are not really nice. Sidenote: why doesn't the mysqld configure script suggest various performance levels upon setup, based on detected hardware (RAM, disk, CPU cores)?
        creshal 11y ago
        Opcache is enabled, SSDs are in hardware raid and the whole time is spent inside PHP, MySQL finishes all queries after 0.02 seconds. The usual suspects are all dealt with.
        creshal 11y ago
        It could just as well be our ACF+CPT fuckery that leads to this – I'm not that involved in the actual application side of things; I just provision the hardware and OS stack. Still, we're usually seeing a lot better performance with everything that's not wordpress – be it our in-house PHP framework, or node, Rails or Python apps.
sbarre 11y ago
Citation needed, my friend.. As part of my day job we regularly deploy Wordpress sites that efficiently handle hundreds of thousands of page views per day (and yes I realize that's not HUGE but it's not trivial either) and we do it on cheap hardware that would barely run the stock JVM, let alone an actual Java app server. "High performance" is relative to your costs & needs, and it's all about using the right tool for the job. If you know how to configure and optimize PHP applications properly, you can make them extremely performant. Either way, it seems you're arbitrarily ignoring whole classes of apps or languages because of some outdated bias (that i bet you just accepted from others and never tested yourself), so you're obviously not interested in an objective discussion.
- justtopostthis3 11y ago
  > cheap hardware that would barely run the stock JVM I run two stock JVM instances and Redis on a $10 DO VPS that serves ~700k pageviews per day > arbitrarily ignoring whole classes of apps or languages because of some outdated bias (that i bet you just accepted from others and never tested yourself) hmm
  - Gigablah 11y ago
    I, too, can put nginx microcaching in front of anything.
    - justtopostthis3 11y ago
      Why would I need that? It's not like I'm running Wordpress or something. haaaaaaaaaa (I'm so sorry)
  - sbarre 11y ago
    Point taken on my rather glib final statement there. I deserved that.. I'll admit that my experience with Java web apps was never against bare JVMs, but against app servers (Liferay, etc). How common is it for people to roll their own no-framework bare web apps in Java?

You are right about the slowness, that's not exactly the point I wanted to make. Anyway, calling wordpress or drupal "high performance" is a joke.

by mahouse 11y ago

You are right about the slowness, that's not exactly the point I wanted to make. Anyway, calling wordpress or drupal "high performance" is a joke.

mschuster91 11y ago

> Anyway, calling wordpress or drupal "high performance" is a joke. Well, these two platforms are by far the leader in the CMS space. It's either usability, ease of administration or speed that keeps people using WP/Drupal over alternatives in other languages/frameworks.

creshal 11y ago
Seeing it from the point of view of a company with a few hundred Wordpress deployments: Definitely usability (if you want laypersons to be able to author content, there's little competition), largely availability of plugins, a bit ease of administration (it's getting better), but definitely not speed. Wordpress is so mindbogglingly slow that we have to use excessive amounts of caching for anything even remotely resembling medium traffic.
- sbarre 11y ago
  Honest question: do you not consider caching to be a normal part of a dynamic web application? I've never worked with a CMS or web app - in any language - that didn't include caching as a core part of the performance layer once it reaches a certain amount of load.. I'm sure it's possible, with enough money to throw at hardware, to scale without it, but why would you? Caching is a completely valid optimization approach in my view..
  - mschuster91 11y ago
    Well Wordpress long came without any caching at all, dunno if that's changed by now. Drupal in contrast comes with its own DB caching. Both can be plugged into memcache and friends, and if done right you can put in Cloudflare or other frontend caching systems in front. Biggest performance +1, though, is enabling php opcache.
  - creshal 11y ago
    > Honest question: do you not consider caching to be a normal part of a dynamic web application? We should not be needing bare metal servers with 4 GHz CPUs to serve a non-interactive site with ~4000 visitors a day. Yet, without full-page caching (i.e., bypass Wordpress/PHP entirely and serve .html files straight from nginx), the servers would melt under the load. Rendering twenty images and forty text fields out of database should not take several seconds on a modern server. Yet, Wordpress has no problems taking a dozen seconds even under light load conditions – mind you, that's time purely spent in PHP, for rendering, not on the database.
    - sbarre 11y ago
      Wow.. So I work with Wordpress on a day to day basis as well and we don't see anything like this.. We have pretty DB-heavy sites (lots of ACF Pro fields and lots of relationships) and we're handling bigger loads than that, on much smaller virtual hardware.. I'm not making any specific value statement about your setup here, I'm just surprised by what you're seeing on your end.
      - mschuster91 11y ago
        I guess it's a lack of opcache plus no SSD and no mysql tuning. Debian/Ubuntu defaults are not really nice. Sidenote: why doesn't the mysqld configure script suggest various performance levels upon setup, based on detected hardware (RAM, disk, CPU cores)?
        creshal 11y ago
        Opcache is enabled, SSDs are in hardware raid and the whole time is spent inside PHP, MySQL finishes all queries after 0.02 seconds. The usual suspects are all dealt with.
      - creshal 11y ago
        It could just as well be our ACF+CPT fuckery that leads to this – I'm not that involved in the actual application side of things; I just provision the hardware and OS stack. Still, we're usually seeing a lot better performance with everything that's not wordpress – be it our in-house PHP framework, or node, Rails or Python apps.

sbarre 11y ago

Citation needed, my friend.. As part of my day job we regularly deploy Wordpress sites that efficiently handle hundreds of thousands of page views per day (and yes I realize that's not HUGE but it's not trivial either) and we do it on cheap hardware that would barely run the stock JVM, let alone an actual Java app server. "High performance" is relative to your costs & needs, and it's all about using the right tool for the job. If you know how to configure and optimize PHP applications properly, you can make them extremely performant. Either way, it seems you're arbitrarily ignoring whole classes of apps or languages because of some outdated bias (that i bet you just accepted from others and never tested yourself), so you're obviously not interested in an objective discussion.

justtopostthis3 11y ago
> cheap hardware that would barely run the stock JVM I run two stock JVM instances and Redis on a $10 DO VPS that serves ~700k pageviews per day > arbitrarily ignoring whole classes of apps or languages because of some outdated bias (that i bet you just accepted from others and never tested yourself) hmm
- Gigablah 11y ago
  I, too, can put nginx microcaching in front of anything.
  - justtopostthis3 11y ago
    Why would I need that? It's not like I'm running Wordpress or something. haaaaaaaaaa (I'm so sorry)
- sbarre 11y ago
  Point taken on my rather glib final statement there. I deserved that.. I'll admit that my experience with Java web apps was never against bare JVMs, but against app servers (Liferay, etc). How common is it for people to roll their own no-framework bare web apps in Java?