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Communists and anarchists talking about the new utopian society before winning the war. I wonder why they lose...

guard-of-terra 11y ago
In Russia, communists won the Civil War precisely because they were talking about the new utopia. Because, the other side said: "we will win the war and then decide what to build". That's why I even struggle name them, other than "white" (as opposed to communist "red").
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  The Whites were pretty clear in their goals, I'd thought: preservation of monarchy and status quo. A more interesting counterfactual would have been Menshevik victory.
  - guard-of-terra 11y ago
    Except most of them were actually republican, supporting Provisional Government. It was a wide coalition of monarchists, republicans, orthdox priests and military. Their only common ground was perhaps dislike and fear of reds (and that turned out very justified).
    - chimprich 11y ago
      > Their only common ground was perhaps dislike and fear of reds (and that turned out very justified). Getting wildly OT now but the atrocities and systematic killings performed by the Nationalists absolutely dwarfed the isolated killings on the Republican side, perhaps by a factor of ten to one.
      - guard-of-terra 11y ago
        I'm sorry, who are nationalists that you're talking about? Is it the right civil war? Only thing coming to my mind is ukrainian nationalists, Petlura, that kind of thing.
        chimprich 11y ago
        Ah sorry, I thought you were referring to the Spanish Civil War as discussed by the original poster. I failed to notice the thread had shifted context.
PhasmaFelis 11y ago
I'm confused. What order would you suggest instead?
- karmapolice 11y ago
  First concentrate on stopping the fascist coup d'etat, i.e. winning the Spanish Civil War and preventing 40 years of fascist dictatorship, then discuss about the kind of new society you want.
  - PhasmaFelis 11y ago
    So knock over the government without any idea of what to replace it with? That doesn't have a great track record either, historically. (Wait, are we still talking about "communists and anarchists" in general, or is it just the Spanish Civil War now?)
    - karmapolice 11y ago
      I was talking about the Spanish Civil War. The parent comment said "a brief period of Catalonian history amidst a civil war."

In Russia, communists won the Civil War precisely because they were talking about the new utopia. Because, the other side said: "we will win the war and then decide what to build". That's why I even struggle name them, other than "white" (as opposed to communist "red").

vezzy-fnord 11y ago
The Whites were pretty clear in their goals, I'd thought: preservation of monarchy and status quo. A more interesting counterfactual would have been Menshevik victory.
- guard-of-terra 11y ago
  Except most of them were actually republican, supporting Provisional Government. It was a wide coalition of monarchists, republicans, orthdox priests and military. Their only common ground was perhaps dislike and fear of reds (and that turned out very justified).
  - chimprich 11y ago
    > Their only common ground was perhaps dislike and fear of reds (and that turned out very justified). Getting wildly OT now but the atrocities and systematic killings performed by the Nationalists absolutely dwarfed the isolated killings on the Republican side, perhaps by a factor of ten to one.
    - guard-of-terra 11y ago
      I'm sorry, who are nationalists that you're talking about? Is it the right civil war? Only thing coming to my mind is ukrainian nationalists, Petlura, that kind of thing.
      - chimprich 11y ago
        Ah sorry, I thought you were referring to the Spanish Civil War as discussed by the original poster. I failed to notice the thread had shifted context.

PhasmaFelis 11y ago

I'm confused. What order would you suggest instead?

karmapolice 11y ago
First concentrate on stopping the fascist coup d'etat, i.e. winning the Spanish Civil War and preventing 40 years of fascist dictatorship, then discuss about the kind of new society you want.
- PhasmaFelis 11y ago
  So knock over the government without any idea of what to replace it with? That doesn't have a great track record either, historically. (Wait, are we still talking about "communists and anarchists" in general, or is it just the Spanish Civil War now?)
  - karmapolice 11y ago
    I was talking about the Spanish Civil War. The parent comment said "a brief period of Catalonian history amidst a civil war."