4 ms·

A lot of technologists here have certain dreams or aspirations they want to see materialized in their lifetimes. AGI, transhumanism, space colonization, etc. M

A lot of technologists here have certain dreams or aspirations they want to see materialized in their lifetimes. AGI, transhumanism, space colonization, etc. My dream is that I hope to see the emergence of a viable minarchist or anarchist society (beyond Mennonite and kibbutzim arrangements). Thus far the closest was a brief period of Catalonian history amidst a civil war.

karmapolice 11y ago
Communists and anarchists talking about the new utopian society before winning the war. I wonder why they lose...
- guard-of-terra 11y ago
  In Russia, communists won the Civil War precisely because they were talking about the new utopia. Because, the other side said: "we will win the war and then decide what to build". That's why I even struggle name them, other than "white" (as opposed to communist "red").
  - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
    The Whites were pretty clear in their goals, I'd thought: preservation of monarchy and status quo. A more interesting counterfactual would have been Menshevik victory.
    - guard-of-terra 11y ago
      Except most of them were actually republican, supporting Provisional Government. It was a wide coalition of monarchists, republicans, orthdox priests and military. Their only common ground was perhaps dislike and fear of reds (and that turned out very justified).
      - chimprich 11y ago
        > Their only common ground was perhaps dislike and fear of reds (and that turned out very justified). Getting wildly OT now but the atrocities and systematic killings performed by the Nationalists absolutely dwarfed the isolated killings on the Republican side, perhaps by a factor of ten to one.
        guard-of-terra 11y ago
        I'm sorry, who are nationalists that you're talking about? Is it the right civil war? Only thing coming to my mind is ukrainian nationalists, Petlura, that kind of thing.
        chimprich 11y ago
        Ah sorry, I thought you were referring to the Spanish Civil War as discussed by the original poster. I failed to notice the thread had shifted context.
- PhasmaFelis 11y ago
  I'm confused. What order would you suggest instead?
  - karmapolice 11y ago
    First concentrate on stopping the fascist coup d'etat, i.e. winning the Spanish Civil War and preventing 40 years of fascist dictatorship, then discuss about the kind of new society you want.
    - PhasmaFelis 11y ago
      So knock over the government without any idea of what to replace it with? That doesn't have a great track record either, historically. (Wait, are we still talking about "communists and anarchists" in general, or is it just the Spanish Civil War now?)
      - karmapolice 11y ago
        I was talking about the Spanish Civil War. The parent comment said "a brief period of Catalonian history amidst a civil war."
pakled_engineer 11y ago
Rojava is experimenting with decentralized power http://thelionsofrojava.com/index.php/what-you-can-do-here/ http://thelionsofrojava.com/index.php/what-you-can-do-here/ http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/magazine/a-dream-of-utopia-in-hell.html?referer=&_r=0 http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/magazine/a-dream-of-uto...
mindcrime 11y ago
My dream is that I hope to see the emergence of a viable minarchist or anarchist society Same here, but I'm not very optimistic right this minute.
netcan 11y ago
I know kibbutzim pretty well. For all the successes, failures and learnings the main reason I think this relatively small movement is notable is that people just went and did it. If you really think you have a model, go and see if you can implement it. If your model requires revolution, wide agreement with everyone or some such, it's probably not relevant as a model.
dogma1138 11y ago
I don't think there is still a single communal kibbutz left in Israel they all pretty much adopted capitalism and privatized their industry. They originated more out of necessity than out of ideology (not to say that it didn't play a big part in it) as the lack of resources of the early Jewish settlers and the overall lack of development of most of the land pretty much mandated it. I still have yet to see a viable example of a large scale communist society and I do not think one exists, communism eventually dwindles down to planned economics which pretty much kill everything. Even if you do get to the point where scarcity especially of all basic goods is non-existent at best you'll end up with Star Trek like meritocracy, and considering that scarcity would always exists at some point regardless of technological advancement I'm not even sure how much of that is achievable. So you can clothe, feed, and keep your entire population healthy with ease using technology that's great, but as you became that advanced you also want to do other things and one thing would always hold true you will have limited resources even if your only bottleneck is time and the production capacity of your replicators which is also why I think Star Trek is pretty much a pipe dream. Eventually you'll have to decide if you want to produce food or built another Enterprise and if it's not your own family who's going to be left hungry you'll more likely than not choose to make another Enterprise than to provide blankets to the folks on the 3rd moon of Endor (and yes i know exactly what i did there ;)).
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  I'm not advocating anarcho-communism or left-anarchism, necessarily. I'm more than aware of its bottlenecks regarding economic calculation and so forth.

karmapolice 11y ago

Communists and anarchists talking about the new utopian society before winning the war. I wonder why they lose...

guard-of-terra 11y ago
In Russia, communists won the Civil War precisely because they were talking about the new utopia. Because, the other side said: "we will win the war and then decide what to build". That's why I even struggle name them, other than "white" (as opposed to communist "red").
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  The Whites were pretty clear in their goals, I'd thought: preservation of monarchy and status quo. A more interesting counterfactual would have been Menshevik victory.
  - guard-of-terra 11y ago
    Except most of them were actually republican, supporting Provisional Government. It was a wide coalition of monarchists, republicans, orthdox priests and military. Their only common ground was perhaps dislike and fear of reds (and that turned out very justified).
    - chimprich 11y ago
      > Their only common ground was perhaps dislike and fear of reds (and that turned out very justified). Getting wildly OT now but the atrocities and systematic killings performed by the Nationalists absolutely dwarfed the isolated killings on the Republican side, perhaps by a factor of ten to one.
      - guard-of-terra 11y ago
        I'm sorry, who are nationalists that you're talking about? Is it the right civil war? Only thing coming to my mind is ukrainian nationalists, Petlura, that kind of thing.
        chimprich 11y ago
        Ah sorry, I thought you were referring to the Spanish Civil War as discussed by the original poster. I failed to notice the thread had shifted context.
PhasmaFelis 11y ago
I'm confused. What order would you suggest instead?
- karmapolice 11y ago
  First concentrate on stopping the fascist coup d'etat, i.e. winning the Spanish Civil War and preventing 40 years of fascist dictatorship, then discuss about the kind of new society you want.
  - PhasmaFelis 11y ago
    So knock over the government without any idea of what to replace it with? That doesn't have a great track record either, historically. (Wait, are we still talking about "communists and anarchists" in general, or is it just the Spanish Civil War now?)
    - karmapolice 11y ago
      I was talking about the Spanish Civil War. The parent comment said "a brief period of Catalonian history amidst a civil war."

pakled_engineer 11y ago

Rojava is experimenting with decentralized power http://thelionsofrojava.com/index.php/what-you-can-do-here/ http://thelionsofrojava.com/index.php/what-you-can-do-here/ http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/magazine/a-dream-of-utopia-in-hell.html?referer=&_r=0 http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/magazine/a-dream-of-uto...

mindcrime 11y ago

My dream is that I hope to see the emergence of a viable minarchist or anarchist society Same here, but I'm not very optimistic right this minute.

netcan 11y ago

I know kibbutzim pretty well. For all the successes, failures and learnings the main reason I think this relatively small movement is notable is that people just went and did it. If you really think you have a model, go and see if you can implement it. If your model requires revolution, wide agreement with everyone or some such, it's probably not relevant as a model.

dogma1138 11y ago

I don't think there is still a single communal kibbutz left in Israel they all pretty much adopted capitalism and privatized their industry. They originated more out of necessity than out of ideology (not to say that it didn't play a big part in it) as the lack of resources of the early Jewish settlers and the overall lack of development of most of the land pretty much mandated it. I still have yet to see a viable example of a large scale communist society and I do not think one exists, communism eventually dwindles down to planned economics which pretty much kill everything. Even if you do get to the point where scarcity especially of all basic goods is non-existent at best you'll end up with Star Trek like meritocracy, and considering that scarcity would always exists at some point regardless of technological advancement I'm not even sure how much of that is achievable. So you can clothe, feed, and keep your entire population healthy with ease using technology that's great, but as you became that advanced you also want to do other things and one thing would always hold true you will have limited resources even if your only bottleneck is time and the production capacity of your replicators which is also why I think Star Trek is pretty much a pipe dream. Eventually you'll have to decide if you want to produce food or built another Enterprise and if it's not your own family who's going to be left hungry you'll more likely than not choose to make another Enterprise than to provide blankets to the folks on the 3rd moon of Endor (and yes i know exactly what i did there ;)).

vezzy-fnord 11y ago
I'm not advocating anarcho-communism or left-anarchism, necessarily. I'm more than aware of its bottlenecks regarding economic calculation and so forth.