5 ms·

This is true, but I think it's a bit more complex than that. I can hardly imagine anyone proudly telling me in person, "I'm the 'mayor' of Joe's cafe!," yet the

by Psyonic 17y ago

This is true, but I think it's a bit more complex than that. I can hardly imagine anyone proudly telling me in person, "I'm the 'mayor' of Joe's cafe!," yet they seem to revel in it online. There's something more interesting than just my feelings here. Also: Suppose I don't feel that playing into everyone's inner narcissist for my profit is something I'd be proud of. Does that matter at all?

DenisM 17y ago
Clearly you must work within the boundaries of what you find ethically acceptable - either by staying away from certain things or by expanding the boundaries. Just remember that other people have boundaries drawn in different places and arguing about the one right way to draw them is not very productive for pretty much any definition of productive we should care about on this site. You're right in that there is more going on here - the fact that you can't imagine what is clearly going in in front of you suggests that you project your system of values on other people to such an extent that it deprives you of empathy to those people. If you don't get this under control this will seriously hamper your (future) business in pretty much any area other than serving people who are exactly like you. This blindness is not likely to be confined to narcissism. People revel in all kinds of crazy stuff, but you seem to think that one kind of crazy stuff is more worthy than the other.
- Psyonic 17y ago
  It's not that I consider it unethical: it's not wrong, but it does seem like taking the easy way out, rather than making your product strong enough to stand solidly on its own. Then again, you can't always predict how things will play out. For instance, I don't think Apple intended for the iPod and later the iPhone to target the narcissist within, but as they became popular, they became status symbols, and it happened anyway (and less artificially). To the latter half of your response, I'm working on it. Even if my original comment was a bit snarky, it was a still a prompt for conversation on the matter. I'm well aware of the popularity of things like this (Farmville, anyone?), and I'm trying to understand it. I'd be interested in your response to my suggestion that people are much more obvious about this online. While people certainly do things for status in the real world, almost all would take offense if you gave them a gold star for getting a date. Why are people so willing to cede authority (judgment) to a website? The game element doesn't seem to explain it all.
  - DenisM 17y ago
    What is the opposite of the "easy way out" for you? In other words, what is your true goal? You seem to want both a financially successful product, and one that is "strong to stand on its own". My spidey senses are telling me there is a lot of baggage in that latter quote - it looks like you want your contributions to the world to be not just financially successful but also noble in a way, or real-manly (the opposite of "the easy way out"). These two are very different goals - one is of financial independence and the other one is of advancing up the Maslow's hierarchy to "Esteem" level. There are several ways to go about it: 1) Give up on the money part and set about satisfying the Esteem need by getting a very esteemed job (which may not pay very well) - policeman, polar explorer that kind of thing. 2) Get the Maslow's urge under control via artificial means, and remain absolutely cold-blooded in business. When you make enough money the urge will let go of you, and even if not you will have means and training to attack a harder, worthier problem. The first business is not the end of life. 3) Keep building the business but surrender to the urge and let it control you. It will give you a lot of staying power, but it will also periodically send you on the wild goose chase (like writing your own high-scale online storage because real men only eat what they kill). It's a very round-about way about getting there.
    - Psyonic 17y ago
      Very insightful breakdown. I guess I still feel it must be possible to reconcile the two goals, but I have a feeling you may be right that I should try and put one off for now. Food for thought, certainly. I really appreciate you discussing this with me
      - DenisM 17y ago
        I was explaining it to myself as much as to you and I am thankful for the opportunity. That's really the only case when I am compelled to speak of such things - to gain more clarity myself. I am not entirely over this either - far form it. I do iPhone apps with a loyal user base but modest revenue, while my friend is making crazy money on affiliate marketing. I should really just go and join him, yet I can't bring myself to do it. Unlike you I don't find appealing to users base instincts beneath me, to the contrary I think that emotional engagement is something people crave and I must provide to create a great product. The basic problem however is similar - I have a seemingly more profitable opportunity that I am not pursuing for reasons that are not entirely rational.

by Psyonic 17y ago

DenisM 17y ago

Clearly you must work within the boundaries of what you find ethically acceptable - either by staying away from certain things or by expanding the boundaries. Just remember that other people have boundaries drawn in different places and arguing about the one right way to draw them is not very productive for pretty much any definition of productive we should care about on this site. You're right in that there is more going on here - the fact that you can't imagine what is clearly going in in front of you suggests that you project your system of values on other people to such an extent that it deprives you of empathy to those people. If you don't get this under control this will seriously hamper your (future) business in pretty much any area other than serving people who are exactly like you. This blindness is not likely to be confined to narcissism. People revel in all kinds of crazy stuff, but you seem to think that one kind of crazy stuff is more worthy than the other.

Psyonic 17y ago
It's not that I consider it unethical: it's not wrong, but it does seem like taking the easy way out, rather than making your product strong enough to stand solidly on its own. Then again, you can't always predict how things will play out. For instance, I don't think Apple intended for the iPod and later the iPhone to target the narcissist within, but as they became popular, they became status symbols, and it happened anyway (and less artificially). To the latter half of your response, I'm working on it. Even if my original comment was a bit snarky, it was a still a prompt for conversation on the matter. I'm well aware of the popularity of things like this (Farmville, anyone?), and I'm trying to understand it. I'd be interested in your response to my suggestion that people are much more obvious about this online. While people certainly do things for status in the real world, almost all would take offense if you gave them a gold star for getting a date. Why are people so willing to cede authority (judgment) to a website? The game element doesn't seem to explain it all.
- DenisM 17y ago
  What is the opposite of the "easy way out" for you? In other words, what is your true goal? You seem to want both a financially successful product, and one that is "strong to stand on its own". My spidey senses are telling me there is a lot of baggage in that latter quote - it looks like you want your contributions to the world to be not just financially successful but also noble in a way, or real-manly (the opposite of "the easy way out"). These two are very different goals - one is of financial independence and the other one is of advancing up the Maslow's hierarchy to "Esteem" level. There are several ways to go about it: 1) Give up on the money part and set about satisfying the Esteem need by getting a very esteemed job (which may not pay very well) - policeman, polar explorer that kind of thing. 2) Get the Maslow's urge under control via artificial means, and remain absolutely cold-blooded in business. When you make enough money the urge will let go of you, and even if not you will have means and training to attack a harder, worthier problem. The first business is not the end of life. 3) Keep building the business but surrender to the urge and let it control you. It will give you a lot of staying power, but it will also periodically send you on the wild goose chase (like writing your own high-scale online storage because real men only eat what they kill). It's a very round-about way about getting there.
  - Psyonic 17y ago
    Very insightful breakdown. I guess I still feel it must be possible to reconcile the two goals, but I have a feeling you may be right that I should try and put one off for now. Food for thought, certainly. I really appreciate you discussing this with me
    - DenisM 17y ago
      I was explaining it to myself as much as to you and I am thankful for the opportunity. That's really the only case when I am compelled to speak of such things - to gain more clarity myself. I am not entirely over this either - far form it. I do iPhone apps with a loyal user base but modest revenue, while my friend is making crazy money on affiliate marketing. I should really just go and join him, yet I can't bring myself to do it. Unlike you I don't find appealing to users base instincts beneath me, to the contrary I think that emotional engagement is something people crave and I must provide to create a great product. The basic problem however is similar - I have a seemingly more profitable opportunity that I am not pursuing for reasons that are not entirely rational.