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> A lot of these anecdotes are the frustration with dealing with people that waste your time. Having been both a founder and an employee, these examples don't

> A lot of these anecdotes are the frustration with dealing with people that waste your time. Having been both a founder and an employee, these examples don't really ring true to me. At least personally I've seen a lot more employees and consultants wasting founders time than the other way around.

jacquesm 11y ago
As a founder you're a magnet for bullshit artists trying to hitch their star to yours, especially if you're seen as 'hot' in any way, shape or form.
- Alex3917 11y ago
  It's not even just that though. It's like you sign an agreement with a photographer to photograph an event, and then they don't show up and you never hear from them again. Or a potential investor won't respond to your emails, but they add you to their mailing list. Or you hire someone to build a web app, you go away for two weeks, and when you get back it becomes clear that they've been trying to build it on top of their new database hobby project.
  - aswanson 11y ago
    How do you handle the database guy situation? Do you try to salvage anything or just start over with someone else?
    - enraged_camel 11y ago
      A person like that doesn't have the maturity and experience to stick to tried-and-true tools, so not much will be salvageable. So you should start over with someone else.
    - Tepix 11y ago
      You asked for a link to a 802.11 USB wifi adapter 20 days ago but I can't respond to that post because it's too old. Here you go: www.aliexpress.com/item/x/32557465326.html It's $1.71, I guess there is additional demand for these things due to the release of the Pi Zero.
      - aswanson 11y ago
        Thanks for remembering and responding.
  - HillaryBriss 11y ago
    "... you hire someone to build a web app, you go away for two weeks .." I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but, could 'going away for two weeks' have been the point when the project started down the wrong path?
    - Alex3917 11y ago
      It was a hypothetical example. But no, you shouldn't have to babysit people. Even junior devs should be able to exercise good judgment about that kind of stuff.
      - wpietri 11y ago
        Collaboration =/= babysitting. Hiring somebody to build something and then going away for two weeks is managerial negligence.
  - deadbunny 11y ago
    > it becomes clear that they've been trying to build it on top of their new database hobby project That sounds like no one sat down and discussed requirements or even talked things through other than "I need X, do whatever you like"
- robterrell 11y ago
  ...And as a developer you're a magnet for bullshit founders desperate to hitch their star to yours, especially if you're seen as 'competent' in any way, shape or form.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    There are more types of founders than just business guys without technical capabilities. There are also technical founders.
    - nostrademons 11y ago
      There are, but it's a market for lemons. The founders who can build things & get users are off doing that. You mostly don't see them in the startup "scene", because they've found the majority of people are bullshit artists who just want to waste their time. The developers who understand product and can build it successfully are off doing that. You mostly don't see them in the startup "scene", because they've hitched their wagon to a founder who knows where he's going, has a realistic plan for getting there, and treats all the people with him well. When they do appear on the open market, they get snatched up really quickly. What's left are the folks who have impressive-sounding but unattainable dreams, the folks who would rather talk about programming than program, and the folks who believe that everyone exists just to serve them without them needing to bring anything to the table.
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        I'm going to have to disagree with that. As a technical guy I used to be biased in the direction that you're indicating but the last couple of years (since '07 more or less) I've been introduced to a very large number of non-technical founders that absolutely rocked. It is very easy to write all non-technical people off as 'lemons' but you'd be throwing away some very valuable people. Tech chops do not automatically translate into ability to run a company, ability to do sales, marketing, finance and so on. These are essential skills for running a business and just like not everybody is interested in those skills not everybody is interested in making computers jump through hoops. The sum of those skills can be considerably larger than the parts.
bsdpython 11y ago
I've been on both sides and I think it goes both ways. I won't take coding tests ever again because of the wasted time involved. And I've had cases where even existing consulting clients thought it was OK to try and cut my rate in half.

jacquesm 11y ago

As a founder you're a magnet for bullshit artists trying to hitch their star to yours, especially if you're seen as 'hot' in any way, shape or form.

Alex3917 11y ago
It's not even just that though. It's like you sign an agreement with a photographer to photograph an event, and then they don't show up and you never hear from them again. Or a potential investor won't respond to your emails, but they add you to their mailing list. Or you hire someone to build a web app, you go away for two weeks, and when you get back it becomes clear that they've been trying to build it on top of their new database hobby project.
- aswanson 11y ago
  How do you handle the database guy situation? Do you try to salvage anything or just start over with someone else?
  - enraged_camel 11y ago
    A person like that doesn't have the maturity and experience to stick to tried-and-true tools, so not much will be salvageable. So you should start over with someone else.
  - Tepix 11y ago
    You asked for a link to a 802.11 USB wifi adapter 20 days ago but I can't respond to that post because it's too old. Here you go: www.aliexpress.com/item/x/32557465326.html It's $1.71, I guess there is additional demand for these things due to the release of the Pi Zero.
    - aswanson 11y ago
      Thanks for remembering and responding.
- HillaryBriss 11y ago
  "... you hire someone to build a web app, you go away for two weeks .." I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but, could 'going away for two weeks' have been the point when the project started down the wrong path?
  - Alex3917 11y ago
    It was a hypothetical example. But no, you shouldn't have to babysit people. Even junior devs should be able to exercise good judgment about that kind of stuff.
    - wpietri 11y ago
      Collaboration =/= babysitting. Hiring somebody to build something and then going away for two weeks is managerial negligence.
- deadbunny 11y ago
  > it becomes clear that they've been trying to build it on top of their new database hobby project That sounds like no one sat down and discussed requirements or even talked things through other than "I need X, do whatever you like"
robterrell 11y ago
...And as a developer you're a magnet for bullshit founders desperate to hitch their star to yours, especially if you're seen as 'competent' in any way, shape or form.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  There are more types of founders than just business guys without technical capabilities. There are also technical founders.
  - nostrademons 11y ago
    There are, but it's a market for lemons. The founders who can build things & get users are off doing that. You mostly don't see them in the startup "scene", because they've found the majority of people are bullshit artists who just want to waste their time. The developers who understand product and can build it successfully are off doing that. You mostly don't see them in the startup "scene", because they've hitched their wagon to a founder who knows where he's going, has a realistic plan for getting there, and treats all the people with him well. When they do appear on the open market, they get snatched up really quickly. What's left are the folks who have impressive-sounding but unattainable dreams, the folks who would rather talk about programming than program, and the folks who believe that everyone exists just to serve them without them needing to bring anything to the table.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      I'm going to have to disagree with that. As a technical guy I used to be biased in the direction that you're indicating but the last couple of years (since '07 more or less) I've been introduced to a very large number of non-technical founders that absolutely rocked. It is very easy to write all non-technical people off as 'lemons' but you'd be throwing away some very valuable people. Tech chops do not automatically translate into ability to run a company, ability to do sales, marketing, finance and so on. These are essential skills for running a business and just like not everybody is interested in those skills not everybody is interested in making computers jump through hoops. The sum of those skills can be considerably larger than the parts.

bsdpython 11y ago

I've been on both sides and I think it goes both ways. I won't take coding tests ever again because of the wasted time involved. And I've had cases where even existing consulting clients thought it was OK to try and cut my rate in half.