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I dislike working with remote engineers: 1. Time zone differences are very real. A 14 hour difference only allowed for a brief window of reasonable real-time c

I dislike working with remote engineers: 1. Time zone differences are very real. A 14 hour difference only allowed for a brief window of reasonable real-time communication. Latency went from seconds to half a day. 2. My project had a hardware component, and we could not easily assist each other with electrical or mechanical issues, or even things like firmware (e.g. "why won't this board boot?") 3. Meetings were worse. Video conferencing often had technical problems, and we'd waste time trying to get it to work. Normal human interaction (body language, nonverbal cues, etc.) was lost. Remotes frequently interrupted, through no fault of their own. 4. I came to resent the remotes for enjoying this unequal perk, one that inflicts a cost on the rest of the team. Why don't they have to sit in traffic and then in this noisy room with the rest of us? What makes them special?

scrollaway 11y ago
Those are all very bad reasons to dislike remote engineers. "Remote" doesn't necessarily mean on the other side of the globe; obviously you wouldn't hire remotes for hardware projects; some video conferencing software is better than other; and if you're so jealous of remote workers, maybe you should try your hand at it.
lucaspiller 11y ago
In regards to 1 & 3 it sounds like the problems are more your company than the remote engineers. First of all due to the timezone differences I will assume you are US based and outsourced to somewhere in Asia - this alone without the remote working has its own set of challenges (n.b. there is a good comedy TV show "Outsourced" about this). As an example, if someone in India gets stuck doing something they are unlikely to speak up about it until you ask then about it, this isn't because they are lazy or whatever but just because their culture is a lot different to the West. The way you need to work with a team here is a lot different to how you would work with a team in the West - this alone can be the cause of a good chunk of problems that occur when outsourcing. As your team is remote you can't ask them a question and expect an answer in 10 minutes, but you shouldn't expect this of a onsite engineer either as you'll just ruin their flow. Have daily stand ups at times that work for both teams and discuss any issues after that. In regards to the communication just use Skype (audio) and get a good microphone. If you don't have a good internet connection or it's not working, just call them on the phone. Companies have been working with distributed teams long before Skype was even invented... As to 4, well sorry but that's your problem. No one is stopping you from getting a remote job except yourself :)
- millstone 11y ago
  All of these represent costs that a co-located team doesn't bear. A co-located team is most effective, and every remote saps some of their effectiveness. This is well understood everywhere: it's why companies dedicate remote offices to particular projects. Google even has a name for this: "defragmenting," where they attempt to reduce the amount of remote work by giving engineers opportunities to move, or to switch to a local project. I would consider a remote job, but only on a 100% remote team. It's mixed teams that I want to avoid.
RyanZAG 11y ago
> 4. I came to resent the remotes for enjoying this unequal perk, one that inflicts a cost on the rest of the team. Why don't they have to sit in traffic and then in this noisy room with the rest of us? What makes them special? Seriously? Because your working conditions are terrible, remote engineers are bad for having good working conditions? Here's a hint - stop wasting your time hating others for being happy, and work out how to improve your own working conditions into something you enjoy.
- millstone 11y ago
  "Hating others for being happy?" Where the hell did that come from? I resent my peers being given visibly unequal treatment. It's no different than if some engineers get free lunches and others did not. I guarantee you there's onsite engineers in Coinbase who feel the same way. As for "improving my own working conditions," that's exactly what I did, by quitting that job and taking one with a co-located team, and I'm much happier because of it.
  - RyanZAG 11y ago
    So you're happier now because everyone else has to suffer in the same way. You still have to sit in traffic. You still have to sit in the noisy room. Nothing has changed for you. You're just happy now because you can't see other people who are avoiding it? Let me repeat it again - for you, nothing at all has changed except that other people around you are also suffering. Your attitude is awful. If someone came tomorrow to your office and gave a million dollars to each of your team members and $10K to you, you would resent your team members for receiving more money than you, right? People like that are only happy to see others clawed down to their own level.
    - millstone 11y ago
      I'm happier now because I no longer have to deal with the issues in my top-level post. I spend less time being blocked, and I am more effective at unblocking other people. Yes, commutes and open offices suck. But the team as a whole is better off if we sit together, and that makes it worth it to me. I prefer to work with people who feel the same way. That there's no (visibly) unequal treatment is definitely part of it. I want to work for an employer that I believe is fair. > If someone came tomorrow to your office and gave a million dollars to each of your team members and $10K to you, you would resent your team members for receiving more money than you, right? I take it you're a fan of Jeb's tax plan.
nulltype 11y ago
I think people often combine remote with asynchronous. You can have people who work 3PM to midnight in the office, when everyone else is working 9-5 and it can be annoying for communication. I like the idea that those are separate things and when people hire remote engineers they should go for engineers in the same time zone or ones who want to work synchronously wherever they are.
- RightWingRabble 11y ago
  One of the benefits of software work is its asynchronous nature[0]. Unfortunately, it requires a certain amount of trust that engineers aren't extended in these days of Scrum micromanagement. If managers could get past that, imagine the possibilities. Engineers could work on your product round the clock. Things would get fixed and progress made while you sleep. [0]: Hardware isn't software. I can see where that might be an issue.
  - philbo 11y ago
    I'm fortunate enough to have joined a team where this frequently happens. We have people in pacific, eastern, european and antipodean timezones and things often pan out like you describe. It requires everyone to be both conscious of and conscientious towards other people's working hours, so flexibility is key. People get up early and/or stay up late to attend the (few) regular meetings that we have. Sometimes I work late on a Thursday to get something reviewed before the reviewer's week ends. Other times I put hours in on a Sunday so that the review can happen before I start work proper on Monday morning. There is a lot of shared trust required for it to work and I can see that it might not work for every team. But it's definitely working for us.
    - tdb7893 11y ago
      Ya, I have experienced times where it has worked but I don't remember a time it has worked better than collocating a team. There seem to always be some inefficiencies introduced but it really speaks to the professionalism of the team members when it works

scrollaway 11y ago

Those are all very bad reasons to dislike remote engineers. "Remote" doesn't necessarily mean on the other side of the globe; obviously you wouldn't hire remotes for hardware projects; some video conferencing software is better than other; and if you're so jealous of remote workers, maybe you should try your hand at it.

lucaspiller 11y ago

In regards to 1 & 3 it sounds like the problems are more your company than the remote engineers. First of all due to the timezone differences I will assume you are US based and outsourced to somewhere in Asia - this alone without the remote working has its own set of challenges (n.b. there is a good comedy TV show "Outsourced" about this). As an example, if someone in India gets stuck doing something they are unlikely to speak up about it until you ask then about it, this isn't because they are lazy or whatever but just because their culture is a lot different to the West. The way you need to work with a team here is a lot different to how you would work with a team in the West - this alone can be the cause of a good chunk of problems that occur when outsourcing. As your team is remote you can't ask them a question and expect an answer in 10 minutes, but you shouldn't expect this of a onsite engineer either as you'll just ruin their flow. Have daily stand ups at times that work for both teams and discuss any issues after that. In regards to the communication just use Skype (audio) and get a good microphone. If you don't have a good internet connection or it's not working, just call them on the phone. Companies have been working with distributed teams long before Skype was even invented... As to 4, well sorry but that's your problem. No one is stopping you from getting a remote job except yourself :)

millstone 11y ago
All of these represent costs that a co-located team doesn't bear. A co-located team is most effective, and every remote saps some of their effectiveness. This is well understood everywhere: it's why companies dedicate remote offices to particular projects. Google even has a name for this: "defragmenting," where they attempt to reduce the amount of remote work by giving engineers opportunities to move, or to switch to a local project. I would consider a remote job, but only on a 100% remote team. It's mixed teams that I want to avoid.

RyanZAG 11y ago

> 4. I came to resent the remotes for enjoying this unequal perk, one that inflicts a cost on the rest of the team. Why don't they have to sit in traffic and then in this noisy room with the rest of us? What makes them special? Seriously? Because your working conditions are terrible, remote engineers are bad for having good working conditions? Here's a hint - stop wasting your time hating others for being happy, and work out how to improve your own working conditions into something you enjoy.

millstone 11y ago
"Hating others for being happy?" Where the hell did that come from? I resent my peers being given visibly unequal treatment. It's no different than if some engineers get free lunches and others did not. I guarantee you there's onsite engineers in Coinbase who feel the same way. As for "improving my own working conditions," that's exactly what I did, by quitting that job and taking one with a co-located team, and I'm much happier because of it.
- RyanZAG 11y ago
  So you're happier now because everyone else has to suffer in the same way. You still have to sit in traffic. You still have to sit in the noisy room. Nothing has changed for you. You're just happy now because you can't see other people who are avoiding it? Let me repeat it again - for you, nothing at all has changed except that other people around you are also suffering. Your attitude is awful. If someone came tomorrow to your office and gave a million dollars to each of your team members and $10K to you, you would resent your team members for receiving more money than you, right? People like that are only happy to see others clawed down to their own level.
  - millstone 11y ago
    I'm happier now because I no longer have to deal with the issues in my top-level post. I spend less time being blocked, and I am more effective at unblocking other people. Yes, commutes and open offices suck. But the team as a whole is better off if we sit together, and that makes it worth it to me. I prefer to work with people who feel the same way. That there's no (visibly) unequal treatment is definitely part of it. I want to work for an employer that I believe is fair. > If someone came tomorrow to your office and gave a million dollars to each of your team members and $10K to you, you would resent your team members for receiving more money than you, right? I take it you're a fan of Jeb's tax plan.

nulltype 11y ago

I think people often combine remote with asynchronous. You can have people who work 3PM to midnight in the office, when everyone else is working 9-5 and it can be annoying for communication. I like the idea that those are separate things and when people hire remote engineers they should go for engineers in the same time zone or ones who want to work synchronously wherever they are.

RightWingRabble 11y ago
One of the benefits of software work is its asynchronous nature[0]. Unfortunately, it requires a certain amount of trust that engineers aren't extended in these days of Scrum micromanagement. If managers could get past that, imagine the possibilities. Engineers could work on your product round the clock. Things would get fixed and progress made while you sleep. [0]: Hardware isn't software. I can see where that might be an issue.
- philbo 11y ago
  I'm fortunate enough to have joined a team where this frequently happens. We have people in pacific, eastern, european and antipodean timezones and things often pan out like you describe. It requires everyone to be both conscious of and conscientious towards other people's working hours, so flexibility is key. People get up early and/or stay up late to attend the (few) regular meetings that we have. Sometimes I work late on a Thursday to get something reviewed before the reviewer's week ends. Other times I put hours in on a Sunday so that the review can happen before I start work proper on Monday morning. There is a lot of shared trust required for it to work and I can see that it might not work for every team. But it's definitely working for us.
  - tdb7893 11y ago
    Ya, I have experienced times where it has worked but I don't remember a time it has worked better than collocating a team. There seem to always be some inefficiencies introduced but it really speaks to the professionalism of the team members when it works