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I mean, obviously, I may be wrong, I am bad with people, etc, etc... but my feeling on the matter is that this isn't really fear. It's hate. We use the lang

by lsc 11y ago

I mean, obviously, I may be wrong, I am bad with people, etc, etc... but my feeling on the matter is that this isn't really fear. It's hate. We use the language of fear, the language of defense, because that's how you do war these days, but this isn't about safety, not even a little bit. After the far more serious 9/11 attack, we decided to attack a country full of people who.... looked a little bit like the people who perpetrated the attack on us.[1] To the best of my knowledge, there was no evidence that Iraq had anything to do with the 9/11 attack, and most of the justifications at the time seemed to focus on "weapons of mass destruction" - something that I don't think is traditionally a legitimate casus belli. Even before it was shown that said weapons were largely fantasy, I don't think there was a coherent non-race based reason to attack Iraq. In spite of this, the move had extremely broad public support at the time. A lot of people conflate hate and fear, probably out of some attempt to make those who hate look "less manly" or something equally ridiculous, but I think you have a better handle on what is actually going on if you call a spade a spade. Maybe it's just me not being able to understand normal people, but I don't think we're actually afraid of something that kills fewer Americans than sharks most years. I think that a lot of the American political landscape makes a lot more sense if you understand that for many people, how someone dies is way more important than how long they live. Both sides of the isle do this. Cars kill more people than guns, and way more people if you remove the obvious suicides from the statistics[2], but while the left goes on about guns forever, they never talk of, say, increasing the requirements for operating a far more dangerous motor vehicle. All that said, I don't have anything like a solution. I'm just saying that I don't believe that it has anything to do with fear. Fear is what I feel when I bicycle on the same road as cars. This is different. There's very little danger actually involved, from the American side. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War [2]I think you can't really understand the "pro" side of the gun debate until you understand that for many people, the right to own a gun is actually the right to a suicide they control; the right to death on their own terms. It puts "From my cold, dead hands" in a whole new light, doesn't it? The difference between suicide with a gun and doctor-assisted suicide is an interesting example, because in America, the people who think one should be a right usually think the other should be illegal and vis-a-vis

placebo 11y ago
I suggest that hate is an emotion generated by fear and for every scenario involving hate, you'll find one or more fears it owes it's existence to. This is why the underlying fear is what needs to be addressed to eliminate hate.
- lsc 11y ago
  I don't believe that the two are as connected as people think. I mean, we're talking about hatred of "the other" here, right? I could argue that this supposed fear is nothing more than a rationalization to try to make the hate more palatable, more excusable... (you may point out that it's the opposite of the rationalization I used in my previous comment. but my point is just that people relate hate and fear, when I think that the strongest hates have little to do with fear.)
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    Nope, we seem to be hardwired from the monkey inheritance to fear the "other" or "stranger". It may be harder to notice in a more "metropolitan" society though, as the definition of "other" depends on childhood experiences.
    - lsc 11y ago
      > Nope, we seem to be hardwired from the monkey inheritance to fear the "other" or "stranger". again, hate is different from fear. It's similar, I know. but it's not the same emotion. I think we're wired to hate the other, not to fear them. Fear is the emotion I feel when I'm bicycling on a busy street. I'm afraid that one of the giant trucks six inches from my left shoulder will make an error and leave me as a thin, red, road-paste, or as a head with no functional arms. Fear, it has to do with danger. Hate, well, I think I kind of understand the in group out group hate, but my out group is a little different. I hate salespeople. I know they pose zero physical threat to me, and they only pose a monetary threat when I talk with them, but I still feel hatred and anger that they are in my industry, that I need to see them every day. If you want to analyze it, it probably has to do with growing up as a nerd when that was something you really didn't want to be. Generally speaking, I have a mild negative reaction to anyone who seems too smooth, too socially skilled, anyone who seems to fit in too well. Hate, hate is an irrational emotion you feel when you see someone you don't like. Now, I could write a paper about how salespeople have negatively impacted my life, and how they are destroying everything good, rational and beautiful about Capitalism, but it would all be a post-hoc rationalization; Hate of the other is a fundamentally irrational emotion, and while it's usually not hard to graft on some post-hoc weak-sounding fear, it's still post-hoc rationalization. If I actually want to understand my feelings on the matter, I think that they are shaped more by my idea of who "my people" are, by who I felt was oppressing and/or threatening me during my childhood. Now, I also think that having an irrational feeling and recognizing that the feeling is irrational is way better than having an irrational feeling and coming up with a rationalization for that feeling, and I think most people disagree with me there; most people would much rather come up with a rationalization for the feeling they are having, and that's probably where this confusion of hate and fear comes from. (to be clear, I recognize my feelings here are irrational, and I try pretty hard to look past it. Any remaining effects that get past my filter, I'm sure, are smallish. I'm just giving it as an example, because I believe it's very similar to the way racist people feel. Hell, I even have that one salesperson friend who is a really good guy even though he is in sales.)

by lsc 11y ago

placebo 11y ago

I suggest that hate is an emotion generated by fear and for every scenario involving hate, you'll find one or more fears it owes it's existence to. This is why the underlying fear is what needs to be addressed to eliminate hate.

lsc 11y ago
I don't believe that the two are as connected as people think. I mean, we're talking about hatred of "the other" here, right? I could argue that this supposed fear is nothing more than a rationalization to try to make the hate more palatable, more excusable... (you may point out that it's the opposite of the rationalization I used in my previous comment. but my point is just that people relate hate and fear, when I think that the strongest hates have little to do with fear.)
- digi_owl 11y ago
  Nope, we seem to be hardwired from the monkey inheritance to fear the "other" or "stranger". It may be harder to notice in a more "metropolitan" society though, as the definition of "other" depends on childhood experiences.
  - lsc 11y ago
    > Nope, we seem to be hardwired from the monkey inheritance to fear the "other" or "stranger". again, hate is different from fear. It's similar, I know. but it's not the same emotion. I think we're wired to hate the other, not to fear them. Fear is the emotion I feel when I'm bicycling on a busy street. I'm afraid that one of the giant trucks six inches from my left shoulder will make an error and leave me as a thin, red, road-paste, or as a head with no functional arms. Fear, it has to do with danger. Hate, well, I think I kind of understand the in group out group hate, but my out group is a little different. I hate salespeople. I know they pose zero physical threat to me, and they only pose a monetary threat when I talk with them, but I still feel hatred and anger that they are in my industry, that I need to see them every day. If you want to analyze it, it probably has to do with growing up as a nerd when that was something you really didn't want to be. Generally speaking, I have a mild negative reaction to anyone who seems too smooth, too socially skilled, anyone who seems to fit in too well. Hate, hate is an irrational emotion you feel when you see someone you don't like. Now, I could write a paper about how salespeople have negatively impacted my life, and how they are destroying everything good, rational and beautiful about Capitalism, but it would all be a post-hoc rationalization; Hate of the other is a fundamentally irrational emotion, and while it's usually not hard to graft on some post-hoc weak-sounding fear, it's still post-hoc rationalization. If I actually want to understand my feelings on the matter, I think that they are shaped more by my idea of who "my people" are, by who I felt was oppressing and/or threatening me during my childhood. Now, I also think that having an irrational feeling and recognizing that the feeling is irrational is way better than having an irrational feeling and coming up with a rationalization for that feeling, and I think most people disagree with me there; most people would much rather come up with a rationalization for the feeling they are having, and that's probably where this confusion of hate and fear comes from. (to be clear, I recognize my feelings here are irrational, and I try pretty hard to look past it. Any remaining effects that get past my filter, I'm sure, are smallish. I'm just giving it as an example, because I believe it's very similar to the way racist people feel. Hell, I even have that one salesperson friend who is a really good guy even though he is in sales.)