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> I strongly disagree and think this is very open for debate. Drivers set their own hours and use their own equipment. They can even simultaneously use another

> I strongly disagree and think this is very open for debate. Drivers set their own hours and use their own equipment. They can even simultaneously use another app (ex. Lyft). > I really don't see how it constitutes an employment relationship. In fact, it seems to match all the typical characteristics of contractors. From the IRS website (https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Independent-Contractor-Defined https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Emplo...): > The general rule is that an individual is an independent contractor if the payer has the right to control or direct only the result of the work and not what will be done and how it will be done. > You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done). This applies even if you are given freedom of action. What matters is that the employer has the legal right to control the details of how the services are performed. It's pretty clear that Uber is controlling the details.

morgante 11y ago
> It's pretty clear that Uber is controlling the details. Is it? Uber is actually quite hands off. In fact, you spend most of your time as an Uber driver without anyone monitoring you. Uber is paying you to transport an individual from point A to point B in an expedient and safe way. They're not paying you for your time and they're not micromanaging your driving.
- therobot24 11y ago
  See my reply here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10721194 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10721194
paulsutter 11y ago
Drivers can switch on and switch off whenever they want. Drivers must actively accept a ride. The passenger controls the destination and route, and provides managerial feedback (ratings). What exactly is Uber (the company) controlling?
- therobot24 11y ago
  > You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done) > how it will be done From a filed complaint (http://uberlawsuit.com/Complaint.pdf http://uberlawsuit.com/Complaint.pdf): > Although classified as independent contractors, Uber drivers are employees. They are required to follow a litany of detailed requirements imposed on them by Uber and they are graded, and are subject to termination, based on their failure to adhere to these requirements (such as rules regarding their conduct with customers, the cleanliness of their vehicles, their timeliness in picking up customers and taking them to their destination, what they are allowed to say to customers, etc.) The comment by bad_user basically says the same thing, but is anecdotal (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10720036 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10720036) Additionally, one of the details Uber controls is that Uber drivers cannot drive older cars (https://www.uber.com/driver-jobs https://www.uber.com/driver-jobs) - Car requirements are a year "2000 or newer (2005 in some cities)". But what about jobs that dictate aesthetics? Via morgante (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10721054 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10721054) > If I'm hiring contract models for a fashion shoot, I can dictate their aesthetics. Likewise, Uber can require its contractors to use equipment which meets a certain aesthetic standard. Via http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/preserving-status-independent-contractor-30177.html http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/preserving-status-ind... > It's perfectly okay for the hiring firm to give you detailed guidelines or specifications for the results it expects from you. But how you go about achieving those results should be entirely up to you. So a clean car, being on time for a pick-up, or what to say probably fit into specifications for the results Uber expects, however how the drivers go about achieving those results should be entirely up to the contractor. But the model year of the car crosses that line. It tells the driver how the job is to be done - with a car newer than 2000 (or 2005 in some cities). Uber is most likely making this requirement to lower the probability of break-downs during the drive. So there's logic behind their reasoning, but their requirement also limits the independent contractor in a way that a company would limit their employee.

morgante 11y ago

> It's pretty clear that Uber is controlling the details. Is it? Uber is actually quite hands off. In fact, you spend most of your time as an Uber driver without anyone monitoring you. Uber is paying you to transport an individual from point A to point B in an expedient and safe way. They're not paying you for your time and they're not micromanaging your driving.

therobot24 11y ago
See my reply here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10721194 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10721194

paulsutter 11y ago

Drivers can switch on and switch off whenever they want. Drivers must actively accept a ride. The passenger controls the destination and route, and provides managerial feedback (ratings). What exactly is Uber (the company) controlling?

therobot24 11y ago
> You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done) > how it will be done From a filed complaint (http://uberlawsuit.com/Complaint.pdf http://uberlawsuit.com/Complaint.pdf): > Although classified as independent contractors, Uber drivers are employees. They are required to follow a litany of detailed requirements imposed on them by Uber and they are graded, and are subject to termination, based on their failure to adhere to these requirements (such as rules regarding their conduct with customers, the cleanliness of their vehicles, their timeliness in picking up customers and taking them to their destination, what they are allowed to say to customers, etc.) The comment by bad_user basically says the same thing, but is anecdotal (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10720036 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10720036) Additionally, one of the details Uber controls is that Uber drivers cannot drive older cars (https://www.uber.com/driver-jobs https://www.uber.com/driver-jobs) - Car requirements are a year "2000 or newer (2005 in some cities)". But what about jobs that dictate aesthetics? Via morgante (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10721054 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10721054) > If I'm hiring contract models for a fashion shoot, I can dictate their aesthetics. Likewise, Uber can require its contractors to use equipment which meets a certain aesthetic standard. Via http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/preserving-status-independent-contractor-30177.html http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/preserving-status-ind... > It's perfectly okay for the hiring firm to give you detailed guidelines or specifications for the results it expects from you. But how you go about achieving those results should be entirely up to you. So a clean car, being on time for a pick-up, or what to say probably fit into specifications for the results Uber expects, however how the drivers go about achieving those results should be entirely up to the contractor. But the model year of the car crosses that line. It tells the driver how the job is to be done - with a car newer than 2000 (or 2005 in some cities). Uber is most likely making this requirement to lower the probability of break-downs during the drive. So there's logic behind their reasoning, but their requirement also limits the independent contractor in a way that a company would limit their employee.