6 ms·

On one hand, awesome to see Django getting first class Websockets support. On the other hand this feels a bit like "Build the web applications of today, tomorr

by bjt 11y ago

On one hand, awesome to see Django getting first class Websockets support. On the other hand this feels a bit like "Build the web applications of today, tomorrow!" I think that's an inherent problem with kitchen sink frameworks; new things that come along have be shoehorned into the old way of doing things, except when they can't, and then you have to restructure your foundation. I stopped using Django a couple years ago because the kind of apps I wanted to build were REST APIs, websockets, a little static file serving, and connections to realtime backends like redis pubsubs or RabbitMQ. Django wasn't great at any of those, yet carried a lot of baggage from stuff I didn't need (e.g. form handing, templates). I would recommend Flask and/or its underlying Werkzeug library (my personal preference) over Django.

andrewgodwin 11y ago
I agree a little bit, but also part of building out a framework is making choices for people - waiting, looking at the problem space, and picking a solution that most people will be happy with. There are some projects that Django is not the right solution for and something like Flask/Werkzeug is definitely better, for sure, but I'm hopeful that the work being done here will help out the majority of people; it brings a lot more than just WebSocket support to the table, that's just the headline feature most people run with.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
eyepulp 11y ago
I've felt a similar pull away from django on a number of apps. Just looking through the Channel docs [0] however, many of the reasons I get frustrated with Django (primarily the lack of a solid websocket/SSE story) are being addressed. Frankly, I'm addicted to Django's built in auth & admin UI, and I'm thrilled I won't have to bolt on a kludged solution if I want to get some realtime behavior. My frankenstein chat system of Node & Django can be put out of its misery... someday. [0] http://channels.readthedocs.org/en/latest/concepts.html http://channels.readthedocs.org/en/latest/concepts.html
YPCrumble 11y ago
I was thinking the same thing about building the technology of today in the future with respect to integrating Django REST Framework rather than GraphQL.
mangeletti 11y ago
Django has a community and leaders that care, and Django continues to get better. Flask is basically abandoned, despite continually receiving undocumented commits. Flask hasn't even had a PyPi release, or even a Git tag for that matter, since June, 2013. The documentation is also far behind.
- scrollaway 11y ago
  Flask is not abandoned. It receives far less commits than Django because 95% of features common to Flask apps are in modules which are not part of Flask core. Flask plugins are thriving... The last commit in Flask-SQLAlchemy for example was 2 hours ago. The other main difference is Django is developed as part of a large organization, Flask is not. Get the right people together and that could be fixed easily...
- orf 11y ago
  That doesn't seem to be the case: https://github.com/mitsuhiko/flask/graphs/contributors https://github.com/mitsuhiko/flask/graphs/contributors. The owner seems to be fairly active, but it is surprising that there hasn't been a release in two years. It is a micro-framework though so how much can they really add, and the apps and ecosystem around it hasn't stagnated at all.
  - mangeletti 11y ago
    > ... so how much can they really add They add tons. There are many commits, bug fixes, etc. It's just that there A) hasn't been a release to PyPi, B) is an inordinate quantity of unmerged pull requests, C) are many undocumented changes, and D) issues like https://github.com/mitsuhiko/flask/issues/1272 https://github.com/mitsuhiko/flask/issues/1272 that are over a year old (I left a comment https://github.com/mitsuhiko/flask/issues/1575#issuecomment-153219407 https://github.com/mitsuhiko/flask/issues/1575#issuecomment-... explaining the vicious circle that I believe is created by not releasing to PyPi). I commit to Django (and donate), but I would never commit to Flask when it makes no attempt at Industry Standards™ like PyPi releases. I shouldn't have said it's "abandoned", because that's an insult to the parts of the community that are very active.
- 11y ago

by bjt 11y ago

andrewgodwin 11y ago

I agree a little bit, but also part of building out a framework is making choices for people - waiting, looking at the problem space, and picking a solution that most people will be happy with. There are some projects that Django is not the right solution for and something like Flask/Werkzeug is definitely better, for sure, but I'm hopeful that the work being done here will help out the majority of people; it brings a lot more than just WebSocket support to the table, that's just the headline feature most people run with.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

eyepulp 11y ago

I've felt a similar pull away from django on a number of apps. Just looking through the Channel docs [0] however, many of the reasons I get frustrated with Django (primarily the lack of a solid websocket/SSE story) are being addressed. Frankly, I'm addicted to Django's built in auth & admin UI, and I'm thrilled I won't have to bolt on a kludged solution if I want to get some realtime behavior. My frankenstein chat system of Node & Django can be put out of its misery... someday. [0] http://channels.readthedocs.org/en/latest/concepts.html http://channels.readthedocs.org/en/latest/concepts.html

YPCrumble 11y ago

I was thinking the same thing about building the technology of today in the future with respect to integrating Django REST Framework rather than GraphQL.

mangeletti 11y ago

Django has a community and leaders that care, and Django continues to get better. Flask is basically abandoned, despite continually receiving undocumented commits. Flask hasn't even had a PyPi release, or even a Git tag for that matter, since June, 2013. The documentation is also far behind.

scrollaway 11y ago
Flask is not abandoned. It receives far less commits than Django because 95% of features common to Flask apps are in modules which are not part of Flask core. Flask plugins are thriving... The last commit in Flask-SQLAlchemy for example was 2 hours ago. The other main difference is Django is developed as part of a large organization, Flask is not. Get the right people together and that could be fixed easily...
orf 11y ago
That doesn't seem to be the case: https://github.com/mitsuhiko/flask/graphs/contributors https://github.com/mitsuhiko/flask/graphs/contributors. The owner seems to be fairly active, but it is surprising that there hasn't been a release in two years. It is a micro-framework though so how much can they really add, and the apps and ecosystem around it hasn't stagnated at all.
- mangeletti 11y ago
  > ... so how much can they really add They add tons. There are many commits, bug fixes, etc. It's just that there A) hasn't been a release to PyPi, B) is an inordinate quantity of unmerged pull requests, C) are many undocumented changes, and D) issues like https://github.com/mitsuhiko/flask/issues/1272 https://github.com/mitsuhiko/flask/issues/1272 that are over a year old (I left a comment https://github.com/mitsuhiko/flask/issues/1575#issuecomment-153219407 https://github.com/mitsuhiko/flask/issues/1575#issuecomment-... explaining the vicious circle that I believe is created by not releasing to PyPi). I commit to Django (and donate), but I would never commit to Flask when it makes no attempt at Industry Standards™ like PyPi releases. I shouldn't have said it's "abandoned", because that's an insult to the parts of the community that are very active.
11y ago