4 ms·

>Drivers set their own hours and use their own equipment Not exactly... 1. Uber actively solicits drivers to work certain hours and pays bonuses/hourly salar

>Drivers set their own hours and use their own equipment Not exactly... 1. Uber actively solicits drivers to work certain hours and pays bonuses/hourly salaries to do so. 2. Uber, at least historically, has solicited drivers to travel outside their county (where ride sharing may legal) to drive in other counties (where ride sharing is illegal) by paying bonuses/hour salaries. 3. Skip the car for a second...all other equipment to facilitate the ride is provided by Uber, including: an iphone provided by Uber; the software scheduling the ride; the software routing the ride; and the software facilitating the payment process. 4. It is my understanding Uber will finance vehicles for Uber drivers, making Uber the owner of the cars being used by Uber drivers in many cases. 5. Where ride sharing violates the law, ranging from traffic tickets to criminal arrests, Uber will pay for the Uber driver's lawyer. *I have always said 5 is the most disturbing, in what other industry does a company provide services (through employees or contractors) where the employee/contractor can be civilly fined and/or criminally charge for doing their job? From a legal perspective the courts, as far as I am aware, have never looked a company providing a lawyer as a factor in determining the employee/contractor relationship issue. However, that is only because I think the entire scheme is novel for any business, again what other industry see employees/contractors fined/arrested for doing their job? Ultimately the fact that Uber provides and pays for lawyers to represent Uber drivers will pop its head up in the courts, and it would not surprise me if this fact becomes a new element/factor the courts weight in determining the employee/contractor issue. In my opinion, such a scheme strongly suggests an employee relationship.

morgante 11y ago
> 1. Uber actively solicits drivers to work certain hours and pays bonuses/hourly salaries to do so. Do you mean surge pricing? Either way, this doesn't meet the bar of being an "employee." If you can work only 4 hours a week, then you are setting your own hours. > 2. Uber, at least historically, has solicited drivers to travel outside their county Define solicited. The law allows a company to encourage contractors to do certain things, but if it's not mandated then it's not instructions. > all other equipment to facilitate the ride is provided by Uber Uber does not always (or even usually) supply the iPhone. In fact, drivers have to pay Uber to rent an iPhone if they want it.[1] That's indicative of a contracting relationship. The fact that Uber writes the software is immaterial: Uber is not contracting drivers to provide a ride-sharing service, it's contracting them to drive from point A to point B. The fact that Ebay provides the software for transacting on their marketplace doesn't make Ebay sellers employees. > 4. It is my understanding Uber will finance vehicles for Uber drivers, making Uber the owner of the cars being used by Uber drivers in many cases. While Uber does sometimes offer financing, that does not imply Uber owns the car. More importantly, this has no bearing on the majority of drivers who are driving non-Uber-financed cars. > 5. Where ride sharing violates the law, ranging from traffic tickets to criminal arrests, Uber will pay for the Uber driver's lawyer. Like you said, there is not caselaw determining this. But I don't agree that it necessarily implies an employment relationship. If I, as a freelance developer, built a casino site for a client and was later charged in the lawsuit resulting from the operation of an online gambling site I would expect the client to offer assistance with legal counsel. Also, do you have evidence of Uber paying for representation when it comes to non-ride-sharing traffic tickets? [1] https://help.uber.com/h/1eaa91f9-be2e-463d-809a-df7e4cdeb593 https://help.uber.com/h/1eaa91f9-be2e-463d-809a-df7e4cdeb593
- will_brown 11y ago
  >Do you mean surge pricing? No, hourly wages. Along the lines of emails/notifications going out to drivers telling them if they drive in certain areas/times they will be paid an additional hourly rate. For example, in Florida they will recruit out of town drivers into different towns for eventsm such as Spring Break in Panama City where recruited drivers were arrested, and recruites drivers to do this by offering an hourly wage during these times. >Uber does not always (or even usually) supply the iPhone. I have had multiple drivers tell me otherwise. I don't know why they would make it up, but take note, amazingly all Uber drivers will have an iphone (figure ~50% would have an Android...but nope all iphones). >While Uber does sometimes offer financing, that does not imply Uber owns the car. More importantly, this has no bearing on the majority of drivers who are driving non-Uber-financed cars. Perhaps in your eyes, but the eyes of the law care who owns the equipment, and the law does not have to make broad decisions, they can look at each specific set of facts on a case by case basis. >If I, as a freelance developer, built a casino site for a client and was later charged in the lawsuit resulting from the operation of an online gambling site I would expect the client to offer assistance with legal counsel. That is a very odd expectation you have, especially if it is not explicitly in your Agreement, and I'd ask anyone to show me an IC Agreement where the company agrees to provide a lawyer for the contractor should the contractor's performance of the agreement violate the law (as such an Agreement would be unenforceable as you can not contract to break the law). Moreover, having drafted 100's of IC Agreements, I always include language to the complete opposite, to the effect that the contractor must warrant that their performance of the Agreement will comply with Federal, State and local laws and otherwise the contractor indemnify the company if they breach any laws. >Also, do you have evidence of Uber paying for representation when it comes to non-ride-sharing traffic tickets? I live in Miami/Fort Lauderdale, where Uber drivers are regularly ticketed and sometimes arrested. Its common knowledge around here Uber pays for the lawyer and pays fines. In fact Uber had an outstanding debt to Broward County alone for ~$3M.
  - morgante 11y ago
    > but the eyes of the law care who owns the equipment And where is there any evidence of Uber owning the equipment. Financing is done through third parties, not Uber. Not to mention that it's a pretty novel interpretation that financing somehow transfers ownership.

morgante 11y ago

> 1. Uber actively solicits drivers to work certain hours and pays bonuses/hourly salaries to do so. Do you mean surge pricing? Either way, this doesn't meet the bar of being an "employee." If you can work only 4 hours a week, then you are setting your own hours. > 2. Uber, at least historically, has solicited drivers to travel outside their county Define solicited. The law allows a company to encourage contractors to do certain things, but if it's not mandated then it's not instructions. > all other equipment to facilitate the ride is provided by Uber Uber does not always (or even usually) supply the iPhone. In fact, drivers have to pay Uber to rent an iPhone if they want it.[1] That's indicative of a contracting relationship. The fact that Uber writes the software is immaterial: Uber is not contracting drivers to provide a ride-sharing service, it's contracting them to drive from point A to point B. The fact that Ebay provides the software for transacting on their marketplace doesn't make Ebay sellers employees. > 4. It is my understanding Uber will finance vehicles for Uber drivers, making Uber the owner of the cars being used by Uber drivers in many cases. While Uber does sometimes offer financing, that does not imply Uber owns the car. More importantly, this has no bearing on the majority of drivers who are driving non-Uber-financed cars. > 5. Where ride sharing violates the law, ranging from traffic tickets to criminal arrests, Uber will pay for the Uber driver's lawyer. Like you said, there is not caselaw determining this. But I don't agree that it necessarily implies an employment relationship. If I, as a freelance developer, built a casino site for a client and was later charged in the lawsuit resulting from the operation of an online gambling site I would expect the client to offer assistance with legal counsel. Also, do you have evidence of Uber paying for representation when it comes to non-ride-sharing traffic tickets? [1] https://help.uber.com/h/1eaa91f9-be2e-463d-809a-df7e4cdeb593 https://help.uber.com/h/1eaa91f9-be2e-463d-809a-df7e4cdeb593

will_brown 11y ago
>Do you mean surge pricing? No, hourly wages. Along the lines of emails/notifications going out to drivers telling them if they drive in certain areas/times they will be paid an additional hourly rate. For example, in Florida they will recruit out of town drivers into different towns for eventsm such as Spring Break in Panama City where recruited drivers were arrested, and recruites drivers to do this by offering an hourly wage during these times. >Uber does not always (or even usually) supply the iPhone. I have had multiple drivers tell me otherwise. I don't know why they would make it up, but take note, amazingly all Uber drivers will have an iphone (figure ~50% would have an Android...but nope all iphones). >While Uber does sometimes offer financing, that does not imply Uber owns the car. More importantly, this has no bearing on the majority of drivers who are driving non-Uber-financed cars. Perhaps in your eyes, but the eyes of the law care who owns the equipment, and the law does not have to make broad decisions, they can look at each specific set of facts on a case by case basis. >If I, as a freelance developer, built a casino site for a client and was later charged in the lawsuit resulting from the operation of an online gambling site I would expect the client to offer assistance with legal counsel. That is a very odd expectation you have, especially if it is not explicitly in your Agreement, and I'd ask anyone to show me an IC Agreement where the company agrees to provide a lawyer for the contractor should the contractor's performance of the agreement violate the law (as such an Agreement would be unenforceable as you can not contract to break the law). Moreover, having drafted 100's of IC Agreements, I always include language to the complete opposite, to the effect that the contractor must warrant that their performance of the Agreement will comply with Federal, State and local laws and otherwise the contractor indemnify the company if they breach any laws. >Also, do you have evidence of Uber paying for representation when it comes to non-ride-sharing traffic tickets? I live in Miami/Fort Lauderdale, where Uber drivers are regularly ticketed and sometimes arrested. Its common knowledge around here Uber pays for the lawyer and pays fines. In fact Uber had an outstanding debt to Broward County alone for ~$3M.
- morgante 11y ago
  > but the eyes of the law care who owns the equipment And where is there any evidence of Uber owning the equipment. Financing is done through third parties, not Uber. Not to mention that it's a pretty novel interpretation that financing somehow transfers ownership.