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> the drivers are employees by any sort of logical duck test I strongly disagree and think this is very open for debate. Drivers set their own hours and use t

> the drivers are employees by any sort of logical duck test I strongly disagree and think this is very open for debate. Drivers set their own hours and use their own equipment. They can even simultaneously use another app (ex. Lyft). I really don't see how it constitutes an employment relationship. In fact, it seems to match all the typical characteristics of contractors.

venomsnake 11y ago
A good test - if the contracts are negotiated individually for all drivers - they are contractors. If it is take or leave with 1000s more like you - you are employee. If you have no bargaining power - you are not a contractor IMO.
- sageikosa 11y ago
  Or...more likely...you are a contractor offering a commodity service in a market with ample supply. There's no requirement to go into lengthy or customized negotiations to offer, accept or reject a contract.
  - jsprogrammer 11y ago
    Uber drivers don't even have the opportunity to negotiate a contract. The situations are not even comparable.
    - sageikosa 11y ago
      Huh? I can negotiate a salary, that doesn't make me a contractor. A separate haggling phase of a contract is not necessary for a contract to have legal force. It's the agreement to the letter of the contract.
      - jsprogrammer 11y ago
        Yes, you can still have a "contract", but the driver and rider either accept or reject a prewritten, third-party contract. The driver cannot negotiate directly with the rider as you would expect an independent contractor to be able to do.
        sageikosa 11y ago
        Which has nothing to do with whether a driver is an employee or a contractor for uber...if a driver wants to go gypsy, they lose the dispatch functionality of uber, but gain the ability to negotiate fares with riders directly, as they are not encumbered by a previous agreement.
- Zikes 11y ago
  But, don't a lot of employees also get to negotiate their salaries and benefits when they're hired?
- morgante 11y ago
  > A good test - if the contracts are negotiated individually for all drivers - they are contractors. If it is take or leave with 1000s more like you - you are employee. I have literally never seen that as a test, and it seems extraordinarily effective. Many employees have a ton of leverage and do negotiate their compensation aggressively. On the other hand, many contractors do very little negotiation. Ex. my dad works in construction and would frequently be told about a certain project where the pay was $x/hr for 1 week — take it or leave it (no negotiation). I don't see how whether contracts are collective or individual is at all an effective test for differentiating contractors and employees.
- Symmetry 11y ago
  I'm not sure that's a very good test. I certainly have bargaining power but I'm still an employee.
gergles 11y ago
The big example how the relationship is an employment one (IMO) is the integration test from US v. Silk (1947) -- and yes, it's from 1947 so take what you will from that but it is still one of the factors. Uber simply doesn't exist as a product without the drivers. The drivers' "businesses" are so integrated into Uber's product that there is no meaningful distinction that can be drawn there. Courts frown on rules lawyers, which is what Uber is trying to do right now. There's another 19 prongs that have been used in the past to classify people who are employees as employees. I estimate Uber can only meet 7 or 8 of them, and I don't think that's enough to establish that the drivers are bona fide contractors.
- olalonde 11y ago
  The same argument could be made about a bunch of marketplaces though: Ebay, Mechanical Turk, Airbnb, etc.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    Well, eBay and AirBnB sellers/hosts are not really selling their labour, but their assets. As for the Mechanical Turk, well...
  - jdmichal 11y ago
    There's a distinct difference between those "marketplaces" and Uber, and that's that Uber sets the price, not the member. When I Ebay something, I set the price. If I request a HIT on MTurk, I set the price. If I put up a room on Airbnb, I set the price. If I hop in my car and turn on Uber, I don't set the price. Uber does. I would think that setting my own price is a significant test for being a "marketplace".
    - amyjess 11y ago
      Also, allowing customers to choose who to go with. Uber doesn't allow customers to choose a driver; the system assigns one to you. On the other hand, an eBay customer bids on whatever auctions they want to bid on, and they know the seller's identity beforehand. With eBay, you can go "I had a bad experience with this guy before, so I'll look and see if anyone else is selling this item so I don't have to deal with this person again". With Uber/Lyft, you're stuck with "ugh, the system matched me with this guy, guess I'm going to have to constantly cancel and re-request until I'm matched with someone else" (for the record, I've only had to do this twice in the almost two years I've been using Lyft).
Retric 11y ago
Uber will kick you off if you refuse to many rides. That's not an open marketplace and interfears with using Uber and Lyft at the same second.
- morgante 11y ago
  So will most marketplaces. Ex. if you decline too many guests on Airbnb, Airbnb will also kick you off.
  - Retric 11y ago
    You can refuse any number of jobs on Mechanical Turk or other 'jobs boards' where customers don't pick the worker. Airbnb is a special case because there customers are picking a specific location so refusing cancels the transaction. Uber wants to have the anonymity of Mechanical Turk with the Airbnb lock in.
    - viscanti 11y ago
      Or Uber wants to provide a reliable ride to riders, and they have to make certain assumptions in their dispatching algorithms in order to do that. Or they want to make sure that anyone can get a ride in any neighborhood in a city and drivers aren't discriminating for pickups (which is why they're often much more reliable than taxis).
      - s73v3r 11y ago
        Then if they want that, they should be hiring employees. I honestly fail to see why what Uber wants is in any way relevant here.
        rco8786 11y ago
        > I honestly fail to see why what Uber wants is in any way relevant here. Seriously? What Uber wants constitutes exactly half of the argument.
s73v3r 11y ago
Drivers get punished if they don't work certain hours, and they don't get to set their own rates. Sounds like an employment relationship to me.
- morgante 11y ago
  > Drivers get punished if they don't work certain hours Where is the evidence of that? I've ridden with plenty of Uber drivers who only drive a few hours a week. > they don't get to set their own rates This is far from being a dominant factor in employment status. If I offer a job for a fixed rate on Upwork and hire a contractor to do it, the fact that we didn't negotiate the rate doesn't make them an employee.
  - s73v3r 11y ago
    "Where is the evidence of that? I've ridden with plenty of Uber drivers who only drive a few hours a week." If you turn down fares or only drive during certain peak times, you get pushed lower and lower into the queue when the robot decides who to send out on fares. >This is far from being a dominant factor in employment status. If I offer a job for a fixed rate on Upwork and hire a contractor to do it, the fact that we didn't negotiate the rate doesn't make them an employee. Except that the person on Upwork has the ability to negotiate, and choose not to take the gig. A driver for Uber does not get the chance to negotiate a fare with a customer and turn it down.
    - morgante 11y ago
      > A driver for Uber does not get the chance to negotiate a fare with a customer and turn it down. The customer is not contracting with the driver, Uber is. Uber offers a fixed rate. Take it or leave it (just like our hypothetical Upwork poster). Negotiation has, as far as I know, never been included as a test of employment status. For one thing, it's a poor test: there are plenty of contractors who don't have the leverage to negotiate, and plenty of employees who do.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
will_brown 11y ago
>Drivers set their own hours and use their own equipment Not exactly... 1. Uber actively solicits drivers to work certain hours and pays bonuses/hourly salaries to do so. 2. Uber, at least historically, has solicited drivers to travel outside their county (where ride sharing may legal) to drive in other counties (where ride sharing is illegal) by paying bonuses/hour salaries. 3. Skip the car for a second...all other equipment to facilitate the ride is provided by Uber, including: an iphone provided by Uber; the software scheduling the ride; the software routing the ride; and the software facilitating the payment process. 4. It is my understanding Uber will finance vehicles for Uber drivers, making Uber the owner of the cars being used by Uber drivers in many cases. 5. Where ride sharing violates the law, ranging from traffic tickets to criminal arrests, Uber will pay for the Uber driver's lawyer. *I have always said 5 is the most disturbing, in what other industry does a company provide services (through employees or contractors) where the employee/contractor can be civilly fined and/or criminally charge for doing their job? From a legal perspective the courts, as far as I am aware, have never looked a company providing a lawyer as a factor in determining the employee/contractor relationship issue. However, that is only because I think the entire scheme is novel for any business, again what other industry see employees/contractors fined/arrested for doing their job? Ultimately the fact that Uber provides and pays for lawyers to represent Uber drivers will pop its head up in the courts, and it would not surprise me if this fact becomes a new element/factor the courts weight in determining the employee/contractor issue. In my opinion, such a scheme strongly suggests an employee relationship.
- morgante 11y ago
  > 1. Uber actively solicits drivers to work certain hours and pays bonuses/hourly salaries to do so. Do you mean surge pricing? Either way, this doesn't meet the bar of being an "employee." If you can work only 4 hours a week, then you are setting your own hours. > 2. Uber, at least historically, has solicited drivers to travel outside their county Define solicited. The law allows a company to encourage contractors to do certain things, but if it's not mandated then it's not instructions. > all other equipment to facilitate the ride is provided by Uber Uber does not always (or even usually) supply the iPhone. In fact, drivers have to pay Uber to rent an iPhone if they want it.[1] That's indicative of a contracting relationship. The fact that Uber writes the software is immaterial: Uber is not contracting drivers to provide a ride-sharing service, it's contracting them to drive from point A to point B. The fact that Ebay provides the software for transacting on their marketplace doesn't make Ebay sellers employees. > 4. It is my understanding Uber will finance vehicles for Uber drivers, making Uber the owner of the cars being used by Uber drivers in many cases. While Uber does sometimes offer financing, that does not imply Uber owns the car. More importantly, this has no bearing on the majority of drivers who are driving non-Uber-financed cars. > 5. Where ride sharing violates the law, ranging from traffic tickets to criminal arrests, Uber will pay for the Uber driver's lawyer. Like you said, there is not caselaw determining this. But I don't agree that it necessarily implies an employment relationship. If I, as a freelance developer, built a casino site for a client and was later charged in the lawsuit resulting from the operation of an online gambling site I would expect the client to offer assistance with legal counsel. Also, do you have evidence of Uber paying for representation when it comes to non-ride-sharing traffic tickets? [1] https://help.uber.com/h/1eaa91f9-be2e-463d-809a-df7e4cdeb593 https://help.uber.com/h/1eaa91f9-be2e-463d-809a-df7e4cdeb593
vkou 11y ago
But if they decline too many requests for pickup on Uber, they get blackballed. So... They only get paid when they are working - and when they are not working, they are punished for moonlighting. You can't just pick and choose which part of the contractor, and which part of the employee relationship you want.
- spott 11y ago
  So... they reject too many jobs and Uber stops asking them?
- pdx 11y ago
  I hire PCB layout contractors. If I call with a layout job, and they decline due to being busy on other jobs, I eventually quit calling them. You could say I "blackballed" them, but really I'm just logically calling those who I have reason to believe will get the job done on my time frame. Why is it OK for me to do this to a contractor, but not for Uber to?
  - vkou 11y ago
    Because you don't call them out for 30 minutes of work, put them on a 10 minute break, give them another 10 minutes of work, put them on a 13 minute break... And only expect to pay them for two thirds of the time they worked. You also don't have an automated system that broadcasts identical job offer to contractors, and is able to select whichever one answers first. I'm sure the McDonald's manager would love to only pay his employees for the thirty second increments where there are customers in the restaurant... But I'm assuming you don't do that!
marincounty 11y ago
Yea, you use your own equipment. The equipment is a 2008, or newer four door vechicle. It can't be a salvaged title. I don't care how well the repairs are carried out. Uber even has the tenacity to list what vechicles are appropriate to drive. A list I can't figure out? Are they going for safety? Or, is it aesthetics? There's a lot of people who are desperate for extra income--short of ditch digging. I looked into driving for Uber a year ago. While I haven't bought the four door sedan, it's still on the back of my mind. My biggest fear is spending eight grand on a Uber approved vechicle, and it not working out, and I'm stuck with a boat anchor--that's depreciating daily. Four door vechicles are a hard sell. Wether new, used, or a classic vechicle-- a two door almost always sells faster than a four door. (I'll pass this along, if you want a classic car--and don't care about resale value, look for four door vechicles. Car guys just don't want them. They are a good value now.) So, after looking into that list. A list that changes. I believe Uber is a employer. What really gets me about Uber is they use your insurance. You take on most of the risk, and they have the nerve to tell you what's aesthetically pleasing, or safe. http://www.driveubernyc.com/vehicles/full-list/ http://www.driveubernyc.com/vehicles/full-list/
- morgante 11y ago
  If I'm hiring contract models for a fashion shoot, I can dictate their aesthetics. Likewise, Uber can require its contractors to use equipment which meets a certain aesthetic standard. > You take on most of the risk, and they have the nerve to tell you what's aesthetically pleasing, or safe. The fact that you take on risk is a big part of why it's a contracting relationship. You can lose money driving for Uber. That's a huge mark against it being an employment relationship—employees don't suffer profit and loss.
therobot24 11y ago
> I strongly disagree and think this is very open for debate. Drivers set their own hours and use their own equipment. They can even simultaneously use another app (ex. Lyft). > I really don't see how it constitutes an employment relationship. In fact, it seems to match all the typical characteristics of contractors. From the IRS website (https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Independent-Contractor-Defined https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Emplo...): > The general rule is that an individual is an independent contractor if the payer has the right to control or direct only the result of the work and not what will be done and how it will be done. > You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done). This applies even if you are given freedom of action. What matters is that the employer has the legal right to control the details of how the services are performed. It's pretty clear that Uber is controlling the details.
- morgante 11y ago
  > It's pretty clear that Uber is controlling the details. Is it? Uber is actually quite hands off. In fact, you spend most of your time as an Uber driver without anyone monitoring you. Uber is paying you to transport an individual from point A to point B in an expedient and safe way. They're not paying you for your time and they're not micromanaging your driving.
  - therobot24 11y ago
    See my reply here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10721194 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10721194
- paulsutter 11y ago
  Drivers can switch on and switch off whenever they want. Drivers must actively accept a ride. The passenger controls the destination and route, and provides managerial feedback (ratings). What exactly is Uber (the company) controlling?
  - 11y ago

venomsnake 11y ago

A good test - if the contracts are negotiated individually for all drivers - they are contractors. If it is take or leave with 1000s more like you - you are employee. If you have no bargaining power - you are not a contractor IMO.

sageikosa 11y ago
Or...more likely...you are a contractor offering a commodity service in a market with ample supply. There's no requirement to go into lengthy or customized negotiations to offer, accept or reject a contract.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  Uber drivers don't even have the opportunity to negotiate a contract. The situations are not even comparable.
  - sageikosa 11y ago
    Huh? I can negotiate a salary, that doesn't make me a contractor. A separate haggling phase of a contract is not necessary for a contract to have legal force. It's the agreement to the letter of the contract.
    - jsprogrammer 11y ago
      Yes, you can still have a "contract", but the driver and rider either accept or reject a prewritten, third-party contract. The driver cannot negotiate directly with the rider as you would expect an independent contractor to be able to do.
      - sageikosa 11y ago
        Which has nothing to do with whether a driver is an employee or a contractor for uber...if a driver wants to go gypsy, they lose the dispatch functionality of uber, but gain the ability to negotiate fares with riders directly, as they are not encumbered by a previous agreement.
Zikes 11y ago
But, don't a lot of employees also get to negotiate their salaries and benefits when they're hired?
morgante 11y ago
> A good test - if the contracts are negotiated individually for all drivers - they are contractors. If it is take or leave with 1000s more like you - you are employee. I have literally never seen that as a test, and it seems extraordinarily effective. Many employees have a ton of leverage and do negotiate their compensation aggressively. On the other hand, many contractors do very little negotiation. Ex. my dad works in construction and would frequently be told about a certain project where the pay was $x/hr for 1 week — take it or leave it (no negotiation). I don't see how whether contracts are collective or individual is at all an effective test for differentiating contractors and employees.
Symmetry 11y ago
I'm not sure that's a very good test. I certainly have bargaining power but I'm still an employee.

gergles 11y ago

The big example how the relationship is an employment one (IMO) is the integration test from US v. Silk (1947) -- and yes, it's from 1947 so take what you will from that but it is still one of the factors. Uber simply doesn't exist as a product without the drivers. The drivers' "businesses" are so integrated into Uber's product that there is no meaningful distinction that can be drawn there. Courts frown on rules lawyers, which is what Uber is trying to do right now. There's another 19 prongs that have been used in the past to classify people who are employees as employees. I estimate Uber can only meet 7 or 8 of them, and I don't think that's enough to establish that the drivers are bona fide contractors.

olalonde 11y ago
The same argument could be made about a bunch of marketplaces though: Ebay, Mechanical Turk, Airbnb, etc.
- icebraining 11y ago
  Well, eBay and AirBnB sellers/hosts are not really selling their labour, but their assets. As for the Mechanical Turk, well...
- jdmichal 11y ago
  There's a distinct difference between those "marketplaces" and Uber, and that's that Uber sets the price, not the member. When I Ebay something, I set the price. If I request a HIT on MTurk, I set the price. If I put up a room on Airbnb, I set the price. If I hop in my car and turn on Uber, I don't set the price. Uber does. I would think that setting my own price is a significant test for being a "marketplace".
  - amyjess 11y ago
    Also, allowing customers to choose who to go with. Uber doesn't allow customers to choose a driver; the system assigns one to you. On the other hand, an eBay customer bids on whatever auctions they want to bid on, and they know the seller's identity beforehand. With eBay, you can go "I had a bad experience with this guy before, so I'll look and see if anyone else is selling this item so I don't have to deal with this person again". With Uber/Lyft, you're stuck with "ugh, the system matched me with this guy, guess I'm going to have to constantly cancel and re-request until I'm matched with someone else" (for the record, I've only had to do this twice in the almost two years I've been using Lyft).

Retric 11y ago

Uber will kick you off if you refuse to many rides. That's not an open marketplace and interfears with using Uber and Lyft at the same second.

morgante 11y ago
So will most marketplaces. Ex. if you decline too many guests on Airbnb, Airbnb will also kick you off.
- Retric 11y ago
  You can refuse any number of jobs on Mechanical Turk or other 'jobs boards' where customers don't pick the worker. Airbnb is a special case because there customers are picking a specific location so refusing cancels the transaction. Uber wants to have the anonymity of Mechanical Turk with the Airbnb lock in.
  - viscanti 11y ago
    Or Uber wants to provide a reliable ride to riders, and they have to make certain assumptions in their dispatching algorithms in order to do that. Or they want to make sure that anyone can get a ride in any neighborhood in a city and drivers aren't discriminating for pickups (which is why they're often much more reliable than taxis).
    - s73v3r 11y ago
      Then if they want that, they should be hiring employees. I honestly fail to see why what Uber wants is in any way relevant here.
      - rco8786 11y ago
        > I honestly fail to see why what Uber wants is in any way relevant here. Seriously? What Uber wants constitutes exactly half of the argument.

s73v3r 11y ago

Drivers get punished if they don't work certain hours, and they don't get to set their own rates. Sounds like an employment relationship to me.

morgante 11y ago
> Drivers get punished if they don't work certain hours Where is the evidence of that? I've ridden with plenty of Uber drivers who only drive a few hours a week. > they don't get to set their own rates This is far from being a dominant factor in employment status. If I offer a job for a fixed rate on Upwork and hire a contractor to do it, the fact that we didn't negotiate the rate doesn't make them an employee.
- s73v3r 11y ago
  "Where is the evidence of that? I've ridden with plenty of Uber drivers who only drive a few hours a week." If you turn down fares or only drive during certain peak times, you get pushed lower and lower into the queue when the robot decides who to send out on fares. >This is far from being a dominant factor in employment status. If I offer a job for a fixed rate on Upwork and hire a contractor to do it, the fact that we didn't negotiate the rate doesn't make them an employee. Except that the person on Upwork has the ability to negotiate, and choose not to take the gig. A driver for Uber does not get the chance to negotiate a fare with a customer and turn it down.
  - morgante 11y ago
    > A driver for Uber does not get the chance to negotiate a fare with a customer and turn it down. The customer is not contracting with the driver, Uber is. Uber offers a fixed rate. Take it or leave it (just like our hypothetical Upwork poster). Negotiation has, as far as I know, never been included as a test of employment status. For one thing, it's a poor test: there are plenty of contractors who don't have the leverage to negotiate, and plenty of employees who do.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

will_brown 11y ago

>Drivers set their own hours and use their own equipment Not exactly... 1. Uber actively solicits drivers to work certain hours and pays bonuses/hourly salaries to do so. 2. Uber, at least historically, has solicited drivers to travel outside their county (where ride sharing may legal) to drive in other counties (where ride sharing is illegal) by paying bonuses/hour salaries. 3. Skip the car for a second...all other equipment to facilitate the ride is provided by Uber, including: an iphone provided by Uber; the software scheduling the ride; the software routing the ride; and the software facilitating the payment process. 4. It is my understanding Uber will finance vehicles for Uber drivers, making Uber the owner of the cars being used by Uber drivers in many cases. 5. Where ride sharing violates the law, ranging from traffic tickets to criminal arrests, Uber will pay for the Uber driver's lawyer. *I have always said 5 is the most disturbing, in what other industry does a company provide services (through employees or contractors) where the employee/contractor can be civilly fined and/or criminally charge for doing their job? From a legal perspective the courts, as far as I am aware, have never looked a company providing a lawyer as a factor in determining the employee/contractor relationship issue. However, that is only because I think the entire scheme is novel for any business, again what other industry see employees/contractors fined/arrested for doing their job? Ultimately the fact that Uber provides and pays for lawyers to represent Uber drivers will pop its head up in the courts, and it would not surprise me if this fact becomes a new element/factor the courts weight in determining the employee/contractor issue. In my opinion, such a scheme strongly suggests an employee relationship.

morgante 11y ago
> 1. Uber actively solicits drivers to work certain hours and pays bonuses/hourly salaries to do so. Do you mean surge pricing? Either way, this doesn't meet the bar of being an "employee." If you can work only 4 hours a week, then you are setting your own hours. > 2. Uber, at least historically, has solicited drivers to travel outside their county Define solicited. The law allows a company to encourage contractors to do certain things, but if it's not mandated then it's not instructions. > all other equipment to facilitate the ride is provided by Uber Uber does not always (or even usually) supply the iPhone. In fact, drivers have to pay Uber to rent an iPhone if they want it.[1] That's indicative of a contracting relationship. The fact that Uber writes the software is immaterial: Uber is not contracting drivers to provide a ride-sharing service, it's contracting them to drive from point A to point B. The fact that Ebay provides the software for transacting on their marketplace doesn't make Ebay sellers employees. > 4. It is my understanding Uber will finance vehicles for Uber drivers, making Uber the owner of the cars being used by Uber drivers in many cases. While Uber does sometimes offer financing, that does not imply Uber owns the car. More importantly, this has no bearing on the majority of drivers who are driving non-Uber-financed cars. > 5. Where ride sharing violates the law, ranging from traffic tickets to criminal arrests, Uber will pay for the Uber driver's lawyer. Like you said, there is not caselaw determining this. But I don't agree that it necessarily implies an employment relationship. If I, as a freelance developer, built a casino site for a client and was later charged in the lawsuit resulting from the operation of an online gambling site I would expect the client to offer assistance with legal counsel. Also, do you have evidence of Uber paying for representation when it comes to non-ride-sharing traffic tickets? [1] https://help.uber.com/h/1eaa91f9-be2e-463d-809a-df7e4cdeb593 https://help.uber.com/h/1eaa91f9-be2e-463d-809a-df7e4cdeb593

vkou 11y ago

But if they decline too many requests for pickup on Uber, they get blackballed. So... They only get paid when they are working - and when they are not working, they are punished for moonlighting. You can't just pick and choose which part of the contractor, and which part of the employee relationship you want.

spott 11y ago
So... they reject too many jobs and Uber stops asking them?
pdx 11y ago
I hire PCB layout contractors. If I call with a layout job, and they decline due to being busy on other jobs, I eventually quit calling them. You could say I "blackballed" them, but really I'm just logically calling those who I have reason to believe will get the job done on my time frame. Why is it OK for me to do this to a contractor, but not for Uber to?
- vkou 11y ago
  Because you don't call them out for 30 minutes of work, put them on a 10 minute break, give them another 10 minutes of work, put them on a 13 minute break... And only expect to pay them for two thirds of the time they worked. You also don't have an automated system that broadcasts identical job offer to contractors, and is able to select whichever one answers first. I'm sure the McDonald's manager would love to only pay his employees for the thirty second increments where there are customers in the restaurant... But I'm assuming you don't do that!

marincounty 11y ago

Yea, you use your own equipment. The equipment is a 2008, or newer four door vechicle. It can't be a salvaged title. I don't care how well the repairs are carried out. Uber even has the tenacity to list what vechicles are appropriate to drive. A list I can't figure out? Are they going for safety? Or, is it aesthetics? There's a lot of people who are desperate for extra income--short of ditch digging. I looked into driving for Uber a year ago. While I haven't bought the four door sedan, it's still on the back of my mind. My biggest fear is spending eight grand on a Uber approved vechicle, and it not working out, and I'm stuck with a boat anchor--that's depreciating daily. Four door vechicles are a hard sell. Wether new, used, or a classic vechicle-- a two door almost always sells faster than a four door. (I'll pass this along, if you want a classic car--and don't care about resale value, look for four door vechicles. Car guys just don't want them. They are a good value now.) So, after looking into that list. A list that changes. I believe Uber is a employer. What really gets me about Uber is they use your insurance. You take on most of the risk, and they have the nerve to tell you what's aesthetically pleasing, or safe. http://www.driveubernyc.com/vehicles/full-list/ http://www.driveubernyc.com/vehicles/full-list/

morgante 11y ago
If I'm hiring contract models for a fashion shoot, I can dictate their aesthetics. Likewise, Uber can require its contractors to use equipment which meets a certain aesthetic standard. > You take on most of the risk, and they have the nerve to tell you what's aesthetically pleasing, or safe. The fact that you take on risk is a big part of why it's a contracting relationship. You can lose money driving for Uber. That's a huge mark against it being an employment relationship—employees don't suffer profit and loss.

therobot24 11y ago

> I strongly disagree and think this is very open for debate. Drivers set their own hours and use their own equipment. They can even simultaneously use another app (ex. Lyft). > I really don't see how it constitutes an employment relationship. In fact, it seems to match all the typical characteristics of contractors. From the IRS website (https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Independent-Contractor-Defined https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Emplo...): > The general rule is that an individual is an independent contractor if the payer has the right to control or direct only the result of the work and not what will be done and how it will be done. > You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done). This applies even if you are given freedom of action. What matters is that the employer has the legal right to control the details of how the services are performed. It's pretty clear that Uber is controlling the details.

morgante 11y ago
> It's pretty clear that Uber is controlling the details. Is it? Uber is actually quite hands off. In fact, you spend most of your time as an Uber driver without anyone monitoring you. Uber is paying you to transport an individual from point A to point B in an expedient and safe way. They're not paying you for your time and they're not micromanaging your driving.
- therobot24 11y ago
  See my reply here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10721194 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10721194
paulsutter 11y ago
Drivers can switch on and switch off whenever they want. Drivers must actively accept a ride. The passenger controls the destination and route, and provides managerial feedback (ratings). What exactly is Uber (the company) controlling?
- 11y ago