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Very few people really think of themselves as evil. But in my worldview most people (including engineers) cheat a little bit and then rationalize it so they do

Very few people really think of themselves as evil. But in my worldview most people (including engineers) cheat a little bit and then rationalize it so they don't have to feel bad about themselves. Big corporations and complex economical systems lend themselves very well for rationalizing your part in something evil away, especially for upper management. Watch this video. It changed my view on the world: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBmJay_qdNc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBmJay_qdNc p.s. It has been shown that the psychological profile of top-criminals and CEO's are remarkably alike.

jacquesm 11y ago
> But in my worldview most people (including engineers) cheat a little bit and then rationalize it so they don't have to feel bad about themselves. So, if we assume that is 100% accurate then maybe a company the size of VW should have a department that checks up on these sneaky cheating engineers to make sure they don't expose the company to liability. The whole idea is that the company avoids - given the size of the penalties involved - to be caught cheating, especially not at this scale. Then there is the matter that the ethical rules for engineers specifically state that an engineer will never assist or cause a company they work for to break the law. (For some this sort of an oath may hold more strength than for others, but it must have been very clear to the people involved they were doing this to break the law and they would have definitely wanted at a minimum indemnification from higher ups about the possible consequences of this if they didn't actually blew the whistle internally.) This is the sort of thing that Germans tend to be big on and it is one of the reasons 'made in Germany' was seen as a source of trust and quality. VW management is throwing all these values under the bus as if 60 years of brand creation are utterly worthless.
- bardworx 11y ago
  I don't know how VW gets audited but in US, when a company is audited by their accounting firm, one of the sections is a "Process Audit" - checking to make sure that regular business practices are followed. In a perfect world, audits would catch these things, however, because there is a lot of pressure on accounting firms, usually, this step isn't given a lot of consideration. In the event a company is caught, the accounting firm takes a hit on their reputation and have to go back, re-audit, and change their designation of company policy. Source: my wife works at one of the big 4 accounting firms and recently explained how an unrelated company had similar issues in failed business practices etc. etc.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    I think you hit the nail on the head with something that I've been wondering about for a while. I do audits (TDD) for a living and I actually take my job serious. I invest a lot of time into gathering all the information available on the company and try hard to figure out what the main issues facing a company are before I even go there. That means that when I go and look at a company I really look at it. This has two possible outcomes: the first is that the company is actually flattered that someone would take them - and their investors - serious enough to spend the time to make sure everything works and works well. They'll be proud to show someone that spent the time and effort to get to know their company and product how good they are at their jobs and how well their product is put together. If stuff surfaces that is not 'ok' they either know about it and have a plan of mitigation but simply not enough time or other resources and if they didn't know about it they're grateful for the sincere feedback and will fix things as soon as possible. The second possible outcome is that a lot of stuff surfaces that the people running the company may not even have been aware of and would rather not be aware of. This all in contrast to the same job being done by larger companies which tend to output super nice and glossy reports that are essentially 50% gray paper, there isn't anything you could do with a report like that except for pretending that you went through the motions of doing your job. My reports by contrast are usually 20% the size of the competition without any graphs or other distracting elements but are full of actionable advice and clear guide as to whether or not I believe the investment is a good one or not and why. This doesn't make me a whole lot of friends but the results are there and I stand by every word I write. For the life of me I can't imagine that VW with the budget they have and the amounts of money at stake would not give their compliance department the tools and the authority required to do their jobs. I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop, someone leaking a mail archive from VW internal correspondence (assuming evidence has not been destroyed, which would make them look even worse) or something to that effect. This goes way beyond a single arm of VW, it just isn't possible and if it is then it is (counter-intuitively) actually worse for VW because it may mean they are not compliant with a whole bunch of other laws as well. In that case essentially any VW vehicle would need to be re-certified for all aspects of a road worthiness certification because they have make it plain that their compliance departments are toothless paper tigers. And that might be a much worse path for VW than the one where they simply and openly admit to malice with respect to this one single aspect of their products.
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  >VW should have a department that checks up on these sneaky cheating engineers to make sure they don't expose the company to liability. What would eventually happen is that this department would decide to if the liability is greater than the profits generated by the cheat.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    Even if that were the case in this case they really messed up.
- a3n 11y ago
  > This is the sort of thing that Germans tend to be big on and it is one of the reasons 'made in Germany' was seen as a source of trust and quality. And this is a huge part of why I will never buy a Volkswagon, and possibly never buy a German car. Not even used, because that contributes to the predicted resale value of new. Volkswagon has made great effort to position themselves as environmentally conscious, with lighthearted ukulele music, kids running through clean air, flowers and lots of white backgrounds. They said a specific thing, while they were doing an exactly opposite thing. A thing that is deadly in the small and in the large. I bought a used car just before the scandal hit. I'm old enough to remember when American cars were seen as piles of junk. I was trying to be open while walking the lot, and I did sit in some American cars. But due to my prejudice, I ended up thinking "Japanese or German, Japanese or German, ..." while walking the lot. And the next time I buy a car, that chant will be much shorter.
  - patates 11y ago
    If we are discrediting nation by a single incident, are you sure about the Japanese? The 2009–11 Toyota vehicle recalls didn't really help to keep the trust, did they? In anyway, this kind of thinking is really harmful to the global economy and welfare. Please evaluate the companies on their own.
    - a3n 11y ago
      Well, it's a personal decision to be sure. The difference between the Toyota issues and the Volkswagon issues is that Toyota did not (as far as we know) engineer a part of their car to do something that they asserted it did not do, and didn't cheat on testing. They likely foot-dragged the investigation. Volkswagon did exactly that, with malice aforethought. It was on purpose, by design. Volkswagon owns other brands. Not all, but others. I have read that the German auto industry as a whole has has been successfully heavy handed in influencing emission standards in Europe. EDIT: And this refusal to buy is the only leverage I have in influencing corporate conduct. At the least, it's a personal decision not to award actual or suspected behavior. The German auto industry as a whole has been tainted, and this may be their chance to clean up their act and really be what they say they are. Rather than merely any set of corporations that happens to make cars instead of breakfast cereal. Fuck 'em.
stefantalpalaru 11y ago
Interesting video, but it mistakes legality for morality in the file-sharing bashing section, and it unjustifiably demonizes rationalization. It's not rationalization itself that is the problem, but the logical mistakes made in the attempt to justify what we need to justify.
Mvandenbergh 11y ago
>p.s. It has been shown that the psychological profile of top-criminals and CEO's are remarkably alike. For very liberal definitions of "has been shown". It's been shown that CEOs score more highly on a diagnostic of psychopathology than the general public but those diagnostics were designed for use on people with presumed diagnoses of psychopathic disorders, scoring highly on them without a prior probability of having such a disorder is dubious way of finding people who are psychopaths.

jacquesm 11y ago

> But in my worldview most people (including engineers) cheat a little bit and then rationalize it so they don't have to feel bad about themselves. So, if we assume that is 100% accurate then maybe a company the size of VW should have a department that checks up on these sneaky cheating engineers to make sure they don't expose the company to liability. The whole idea is that the company avoids - given the size of the penalties involved - to be caught cheating, especially not at this scale. Then there is the matter that the ethical rules for engineers specifically state that an engineer will never assist or cause a company they work for to break the law. (For some this sort of an oath may hold more strength than for others, but it must have been very clear to the people involved they were doing this to break the law and they would have definitely wanted at a minimum indemnification from higher ups about the possible consequences of this if they didn't actually blew the whistle internally.) This is the sort of thing that Germans tend to be big on and it is one of the reasons 'made in Germany' was seen as a source of trust and quality. VW management is throwing all these values under the bus as if 60 years of brand creation are utterly worthless.

bardworx 11y ago
I don't know how VW gets audited but in US, when a company is audited by their accounting firm, one of the sections is a "Process Audit" - checking to make sure that regular business practices are followed. In a perfect world, audits would catch these things, however, because there is a lot of pressure on accounting firms, usually, this step isn't given a lot of consideration. In the event a company is caught, the accounting firm takes a hit on their reputation and have to go back, re-audit, and change their designation of company policy. Source: my wife works at one of the big 4 accounting firms and recently explained how an unrelated company had similar issues in failed business practices etc. etc.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  I think you hit the nail on the head with something that I've been wondering about for a while. I do audits (TDD) for a living and I actually take my job serious. I invest a lot of time into gathering all the information available on the company and try hard to figure out what the main issues facing a company are before I even go there. That means that when I go and look at a company I really look at it. This has two possible outcomes: the first is that the company is actually flattered that someone would take them - and their investors - serious enough to spend the time to make sure everything works and works well. They'll be proud to show someone that spent the time and effort to get to know their company and product how good they are at their jobs and how well their product is put together. If stuff surfaces that is not 'ok' they either know about it and have a plan of mitigation but simply not enough time or other resources and if they didn't know about it they're grateful for the sincere feedback and will fix things as soon as possible. The second possible outcome is that a lot of stuff surfaces that the people running the company may not even have been aware of and would rather not be aware of. This all in contrast to the same job being done by larger companies which tend to output super nice and glossy reports that are essentially 50% gray paper, there isn't anything you could do with a report like that except for pretending that you went through the motions of doing your job. My reports by contrast are usually 20% the size of the competition without any graphs or other distracting elements but are full of actionable advice and clear guide as to whether or not I believe the investment is a good one or not and why. This doesn't make me a whole lot of friends but the results are there and I stand by every word I write. For the life of me I can't imagine that VW with the budget they have and the amounts of money at stake would not give their compliance department the tools and the authority required to do their jobs. I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop, someone leaking a mail archive from VW internal correspondence (assuming evidence has not been destroyed, which would make them look even worse) or something to that effect. This goes way beyond a single arm of VW, it just isn't possible and if it is then it is (counter-intuitively) actually worse for VW because it may mean they are not compliant with a whole bunch of other laws as well. In that case essentially any VW vehicle would need to be re-certified for all aspects of a road worthiness certification because they have make it plain that their compliance departments are toothless paper tigers. And that might be a much worse path for VW than the one where they simply and openly admit to malice with respect to this one single aspect of their products.
Lawtonfogle 11y ago
>VW should have a department that checks up on these sneaky cheating engineers to make sure they don't expose the company to liability. What would eventually happen is that this department would decide to if the liability is greater than the profits generated by the cheat.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  Even if that were the case in this case they really messed up.
a3n 11y ago
> This is the sort of thing that Germans tend to be big on and it is one of the reasons 'made in Germany' was seen as a source of trust and quality. And this is a huge part of why I will never buy a Volkswagon, and possibly never buy a German car. Not even used, because that contributes to the predicted resale value of new. Volkswagon has made great effort to position themselves as environmentally conscious, with lighthearted ukulele music, kids running through clean air, flowers and lots of white backgrounds. They said a specific thing, while they were doing an exactly opposite thing. A thing that is deadly in the small and in the large. I bought a used car just before the scandal hit. I'm old enough to remember when American cars were seen as piles of junk. I was trying to be open while walking the lot, and I did sit in some American cars. But due to my prejudice, I ended up thinking "Japanese or German, Japanese or German, ..." while walking the lot. And the next time I buy a car, that chant will be much shorter.
- patates 11y ago
  If we are discrediting nation by a single incident, are you sure about the Japanese? The 2009–11 Toyota vehicle recalls didn't really help to keep the trust, did they? In anyway, this kind of thinking is really harmful to the global economy and welfare. Please evaluate the companies on their own.
  - a3n 11y ago
    Well, it's a personal decision to be sure. The difference between the Toyota issues and the Volkswagon issues is that Toyota did not (as far as we know) engineer a part of their car to do something that they asserted it did not do, and didn't cheat on testing. They likely foot-dragged the investigation. Volkswagon did exactly that, with malice aforethought. It was on purpose, by design. Volkswagon owns other brands. Not all, but others. I have read that the German auto industry as a whole has has been successfully heavy handed in influencing emission standards in Europe. EDIT: And this refusal to buy is the only leverage I have in influencing corporate conduct. At the least, it's a personal decision not to award actual or suspected behavior. The German auto industry as a whole has been tainted, and this may be their chance to clean up their act and really be what they say they are. Rather than merely any set of corporations that happens to make cars instead of breakfast cereal. Fuck 'em.

stefantalpalaru 11y ago

Interesting video, but it mistakes legality for morality in the file-sharing bashing section, and it unjustifiably demonizes rationalization. It's not rationalization itself that is the problem, but the logical mistakes made in the attempt to justify what we need to justify.

Mvandenbergh 11y ago

>p.s. It has been shown that the psychological profile of top-criminals and CEO's are remarkably alike. For very liberal definitions of "has been shown". It's been shown that CEOs score more highly on a diagnostic of psychopathology than the general public but those diagnostics were designed for use on people with presumed diagnoses of psychopathic disorders, scoring highly on them without a prior probability of having such a disorder is dubious way of finding people who are psychopaths.