7 ms·

My first experience of American policing in action was at a hotel in Gainsville, most of which was booked out to people attending the same punk rock festival. T

by darkr 11y ago

My first experience of American policing in action was at a hotel in Gainsville, most of which was booked out to people attending the same punk rock festival. There was a whole bunch of people hanging out by the pool in the summer afternoon, playing music of a ghetto blaster, drinking out of kegs and just generally hanging out. I think someone may have let off a firework; but the general scene was on the mellow side of rowdy. Around 8 or so police suddenly burst out into the patio, guns drawn, shouting at people, throwing them face down onto the floor and handcuffing them. The whole thing would have been farcical if there wasn't such an underlying threat of mortal violence. Contrast to a scene in Whitechapel, London a couple of years later; a roof party on top of a tower block. Considerably larger sound system and bigger crowd. Unsurprisingly, around 3AM one of the residents made a noise complaint. Couple of bobbies turn up, as usual, unarmed apart from the standard issue baton; ask to speak to the organisers, give it bit of "well well well, what's going on 'ere then". Some banter ensues and a polite but assertive request to turn down the music and disperse is made, which is duely acknowledged and the party winds down/moves elsewhere.

newman314 11y ago
I feel like there are too many Farva type cops that have seen one too many movies and think that's reality and the proper way to act.
- baudehlo 11y ago
  I had no idea American police were trained like army recruits. It explains a lot.
  - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
    With less discipline and more self aggrandizing macho bullshit.
  - serge2k 11y ago
    I actually heard somewhere (TV probably) that army members are actually trained to try to avoid escalating conflicts like this.
    - UshZilla 11y ago
      It's true. In both advanced individual training (the job specific one that follows the famous "basic training") and before deploying to Afghanistan, I underwent a good amount of tactical and combat training. In both situations we were not only taught proper protocols for "escalation of force" and "rules of engagement" but also threatened with doom if we didn't follow them. It varies on many factors, but generally before pulling the trigger you have to visually identify a threat, yell a verbal warning, show your weapon as a warning, fire a warning shot, aim at the threat and repeat the verbal warning, then fire if necessary. Obviously this doesn't apply to full-combat situations, but for instances of the type that our domestic police force encounter, it most certainly would. It's so ingrained that I always wonder how we have so many occurrences of police shootings. Sad situation, especially because (imho) the vast majority of police are amazing, selfless, community minded heroes, whose profession is besmirched by these brutal thugs who share their uniform.
      - jmorrow977 11y ago
        If the percentage of "good ones" is so high, why do they protect the "bad ones"?
        UshZilla 11y ago
        I agree, that's definitely part of the problem. "Closing ranks" to protect each other is, I think, an inherently loyal and noble response, but it has to be tempered by humanity and reason, and that does not seem to be happening. There is probably also a strong element of fear- as mentioned in the article, many of these police really are trained in aggressive response, and that becomes both muscle memory and instinct, it genuinely does. I think many great officers imagine the "what would I have done" and in their doubt and worry over that hypothetical, provide a unified front against the repercussions of justice for their fellow officers, in case the same should ever happen to them.
- fisherjeff 11y ago
  Totally agree. There's no way a person can be grounded in any semblance of reality and still pull those kinds of shenanigans.
OldSchoolJohnny 11y ago
Your London experience mirrors all my Canada experiences with this same issue. I think the US is the outlier here.
- moheeb 11y ago
  Your Canadian experiences mirror all my US experiences.
  - indlebe 11y ago
    Really? I'm a Canadian who had an awful experience with US police. I was attending a music festival that had a noise complaint, officers came in with guns drawn. I've never seen this approach in Canada.
    - barsonme 11y ago
      I'm an American who's only had good experiences with US police. I'm not gonna spill all my interactions with the police on the internet, of course, but I've been to college parties where the cops just told us to shut up. I've been speeding once or twice and had the officers bump the ticket down or give me a warning. Perhaps we have good cops over here in Washington?
      - TheGRS 11y ago
        Heh I was just about to say that we shouldn't conflate one experience to "all cops in the US", but then realized all of my experiences have also been in Washington, so maybe we just have kinder police.
      - stcredzero 11y ago
        I'm an American who's had very mixed experiences with the police. I've had police give me arbitrary orders. I've had police in a state of ever-escalating anger while I'm being completely cooperative and saying not much more than "Yes sir, no sir!" I've had police rant and rave at me outside my car window. I've had police bury incidents of threats and physical intimidation against me as a favor to their friends. I've had police tell me bald-faced lies about the District Attorney's office that the District Attorney told me were complete fabrications. I've also had very good interactions with the police. I'm an Ivy League graduate and have often been a highly paid professional -- which was my status for most of the above interactions with the police. I have no police record of any kind. I am rather small in stature and have a meek personal demeanor and a clean cut appearance. I am, however, not "white." My interactions with the police have been astonishingly varied.
jzwinck 11y ago
I lived in London. Across the street lived a guy dealing drugs from his window. Like a drive through. This was in a nice area in Zone 1. Due to the noise created two or three times a week by junkies who sat down there and got high, I called the police. About once a week around 2 or 3 AM for a few months. I took pictures documenting all the action and gave them to the police. When the police arrived in time to find the screaming drug addicts outside my window, they were just as you describe: incredibly polite, and ineffective. They would ask some questions then leave. Please think about it from the perspective of the people whose sleep is disrupted night after night after night by substance abusers screaming and drunk people carousing, before we celebrate the kind and gentle bobby.
- PhasmaFelis 11y ago
  I think you're creating a false dichotomy. A reasonable police force would start with the gentle approach and escalate as necessary; staying stuck at "gentle" is obviously not ideal, but it doesn't follow that defaulting to violent aggression at all times is the right choice.
  - jzwinck 11y ago
    Let me clarify then: I am not in favor of a brutal approach to policing, but I am in favor of positive action. If it is 3 AM and residents have complained and there is a very loud scene outside, that is what the British call "anti-social behaviour." There should be consequences for that--not violence certainly, but perhaps a fine, and for repeat offenders, a free trip to the precinct to wait until they are sober. The person I replied to praised the bobbies for letting them move their party elsewhere. It's entirely possible they went on to disrupt citizens in another part of town. The way London policing works, this sort of thing can go on all night--an "anti-social behaviour crawl." It isn't fair to the people who actually live there.
    - ehnto 11y ago
      I do agree with you, but there is a big difference between disruption of the peace and an immediate and dangerous situation. Partying and anti social behaviour should be dealt with over time with care. Things like dry zones, fines for property owners, police presence and steering the crowd somewhere less impactful. While not fair for you to deal with, the punishment needs to match the crime. Guns and violence aren't appropriate as per America, fines for property owners could be a solution, and most immediate action such as jail or on the spot fines needs to come after the situation escalates, not on a neighbour's whim. A word and a written warning is absolutely enough to begin with, if it carries on then start to escalate consequences. In my experience most people will either leave or tone it down when police show up. Just their presence is usually enough to let you know to keep things reasonable. In Australia we have some massive fines for things like disturbing the peace, which is why police presence works. 300+ depending on state. But they are not enforced until absolutely nothing else has worked.
nsxwolf 11y ago
Your London story is how noise complaints are typically handled in the US as well.
hemdawgz 11y ago
I noticed a very similar contrast watching the UK and US police responses to these Twitch streamers who were swatted. American SWAT team bursts in and arrests streamer at gunpoint even after they've established there's no threat, while UK police knock on door, ask a few questions and leave ("We got a call saying someone killed their family here." "Oh, no, do you want to speak with my mom?" "No, that's alright"). US: https://youtu.be/TiW-BVPCbZk?t=114 https://youtu.be/TiW-BVPCbZk?t=114 UK: https://youtu.be/Kda5rv_kyGs?t=30 https://youtu.be/Kda5rv_kyGs?t=30
- paublyrne 11y ago
  That's an extraordinary phenomenon I haven't come across before(Hoax calls to police giving a streamer's address). People will do really stupid things for kicks.
- Ntrails 11y ago
  The thing I'd really like to get is stats on exactly how often does the SWAT team go in hard and discover a situation that might otherwise have been mortally dangerous for officers. The other side being how often have they just found some shellshocked people, maybe some recreational drugs and a gun in a closet somewhere.
- collyw 11y ago
  Probably helps that the UK doesn't allow guns.
  - darkr 11y ago
    We do, but we just have sensible gun laws. Basically you can have a non-automatic shotgun or rifle as long as you agree to regular stringent inspections. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_K...
    - collyw 11y ago
      Yes, it was a bit of a generalisation. You wouldn't expect people to hve a gun in their house in the UK unlike the US.
hemdawgz 11y ago
I noticed a very similar contrast watching the UK and US police responses to these Twitch streamers who were swatted. American SWAT team bursts in and arrests streamer at gunpoint even after they've established there's no threat, while UK police knock on door, ask a few questions and leave ("We got a call saying someone killed their family here." "Oh, no, do you want to speak with my mom?" "No, that's alright"). US: https://youtu.be/TiW-BVPCbZk?t=114 https://youtu.be/TiW-BVPCbZk?t=114 UK: https://youtu.be/Kda5rv_kyGs?t=30 https://youtu.be/Kda5rv_kyGs?t=30
umanwizard 11y ago
I'm the first to admit that American policing is overly violent and militaristic, but I do think your experience was unrepresentative. I have been to many parties in the US that were broken up due to noise complaints. It was always more like your Whitechapel example than your Gainsville one.

by darkr 11y ago

newman314 11y ago

I feel like there are too many Farva type cops that have seen one too many movies and think that's reality and the proper way to act.

baudehlo 11y ago
I had no idea American police were trained like army recruits. It explains a lot.
- fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
  With less discipline and more self aggrandizing macho bullshit.
- serge2k 11y ago
  I actually heard somewhere (TV probably) that army members are actually trained to try to avoid escalating conflicts like this.
  - UshZilla 11y ago
    It's true. In both advanced individual training (the job specific one that follows the famous "basic training") and before deploying to Afghanistan, I underwent a good amount of tactical and combat training. In both situations we were not only taught proper protocols for "escalation of force" and "rules of engagement" but also threatened with doom if we didn't follow them. It varies on many factors, but generally before pulling the trigger you have to visually identify a threat, yell a verbal warning, show your weapon as a warning, fire a warning shot, aim at the threat and repeat the verbal warning, then fire if necessary. Obviously this doesn't apply to full-combat situations, but for instances of the type that our domestic police force encounter, it most certainly would. It's so ingrained that I always wonder how we have so many occurrences of police shootings. Sad situation, especially because (imho) the vast majority of police are amazing, selfless, community minded heroes, whose profession is besmirched by these brutal thugs who share their uniform.
    - jmorrow977 11y ago
      If the percentage of "good ones" is so high, why do they protect the "bad ones"?
      - UshZilla 11y ago
        I agree, that's definitely part of the problem. "Closing ranks" to protect each other is, I think, an inherently loyal and noble response, but it has to be tempered by humanity and reason, and that does not seem to be happening. There is probably also a strong element of fear- as mentioned in the article, many of these police really are trained in aggressive response, and that becomes both muscle memory and instinct, it genuinely does. I think many great officers imagine the "what would I have done" and in their doubt and worry over that hypothetical, provide a unified front against the repercussions of justice for their fellow officers, in case the same should ever happen to them.
fisherjeff 11y ago
Totally agree. There's no way a person can be grounded in any semblance of reality and still pull those kinds of shenanigans.

OldSchoolJohnny 11y ago

Your London experience mirrors all my Canada experiences with this same issue. I think the US is the outlier here.

moheeb 11y ago
Your Canadian experiences mirror all my US experiences.
- indlebe 11y ago
  Really? I'm a Canadian who had an awful experience with US police. I was attending a music festival that had a noise complaint, officers came in with guns drawn. I've never seen this approach in Canada.
  - barsonme 11y ago
    I'm an American who's only had good experiences with US police. I'm not gonna spill all my interactions with the police on the internet, of course, but I've been to college parties where the cops just told us to shut up. I've been speeding once or twice and had the officers bump the ticket down or give me a warning. Perhaps we have good cops over here in Washington?
    - TheGRS 11y ago
      Heh I was just about to say that we shouldn't conflate one experience to "all cops in the US", but then realized all of my experiences have also been in Washington, so maybe we just have kinder police.
    - stcredzero 11y ago
      I'm an American who's had very mixed experiences with the police. I've had police give me arbitrary orders. I've had police in a state of ever-escalating anger while I'm being completely cooperative and saying not much more than "Yes sir, no sir!" I've had police rant and rave at me outside my car window. I've had police bury incidents of threats and physical intimidation against me as a favor to their friends. I've had police tell me bald-faced lies about the District Attorney's office that the District Attorney told me were complete fabrications. I've also had very good interactions with the police. I'm an Ivy League graduate and have often been a highly paid professional -- which was my status for most of the above interactions with the police. I have no police record of any kind. I am rather small in stature and have a meek personal demeanor and a clean cut appearance. I am, however, not "white." My interactions with the police have been astonishingly varied.

jzwinck 11y ago

I lived in London. Across the street lived a guy dealing drugs from his window. Like a drive through. This was in a nice area in Zone 1. Due to the noise created two or three times a week by junkies who sat down there and got high, I called the police. About once a week around 2 or 3 AM for a few months. I took pictures documenting all the action and gave them to the police. When the police arrived in time to find the screaming drug addicts outside my window, they were just as you describe: incredibly polite, and ineffective. They would ask some questions then leave. Please think about it from the perspective of the people whose sleep is disrupted night after night after night by substance abusers screaming and drunk people carousing, before we celebrate the kind and gentle bobby.

PhasmaFelis 11y ago
I think you're creating a false dichotomy. A reasonable police force would start with the gentle approach and escalate as necessary; staying stuck at "gentle" is obviously not ideal, but it doesn't follow that defaulting to violent aggression at all times is the right choice.
- jzwinck 11y ago
  Let me clarify then: I am not in favor of a brutal approach to policing, but I am in favor of positive action. If it is 3 AM and residents have complained and there is a very loud scene outside, that is what the British call "anti-social behaviour." There should be consequences for that--not violence certainly, but perhaps a fine, and for repeat offenders, a free trip to the precinct to wait until they are sober. The person I replied to praised the bobbies for letting them move their party elsewhere. It's entirely possible they went on to disrupt citizens in another part of town. The way London policing works, this sort of thing can go on all night--an "anti-social behaviour crawl." It isn't fair to the people who actually live there.
  - ehnto 11y ago
    I do agree with you, but there is a big difference between disruption of the peace and an immediate and dangerous situation. Partying and anti social behaviour should be dealt with over time with care. Things like dry zones, fines for property owners, police presence and steering the crowd somewhere less impactful. While not fair for you to deal with, the punishment needs to match the crime. Guns and violence aren't appropriate as per America, fines for property owners could be a solution, and most immediate action such as jail or on the spot fines needs to come after the situation escalates, not on a neighbour's whim. A word and a written warning is absolutely enough to begin with, if it carries on then start to escalate consequences. In my experience most people will either leave or tone it down when police show up. Just their presence is usually enough to let you know to keep things reasonable. In Australia we have some massive fines for things like disturbing the peace, which is why police presence works. 300+ depending on state. But they are not enforced until absolutely nothing else has worked.

nsxwolf 11y ago

Your London story is how noise complaints are typically handled in the US as well.

hemdawgz 11y ago

I noticed a very similar contrast watching the UK and US police responses to these Twitch streamers who were swatted. American SWAT team bursts in and arrests streamer at gunpoint even after they've established there's no threat, while UK police knock on door, ask a few questions and leave ("We got a call saying someone killed their family here." "Oh, no, do you want to speak with my mom?" "No, that's alright"). US: https://youtu.be/TiW-BVPCbZk?t=114 https://youtu.be/TiW-BVPCbZk?t=114 UK: https://youtu.be/Kda5rv_kyGs?t=30 https://youtu.be/Kda5rv_kyGs?t=30

paublyrne 11y ago
That's an extraordinary phenomenon I haven't come across before(Hoax calls to police giving a streamer's address). People will do really stupid things for kicks.
Ntrails 11y ago
The thing I'd really like to get is stats on exactly how often does the SWAT team go in hard and discover a situation that might otherwise have been mortally dangerous for officers. The other side being how often have they just found some shellshocked people, maybe some recreational drugs and a gun in a closet somewhere.
collyw 11y ago
Probably helps that the UK doesn't allow guns.
- darkr 11y ago
  We do, but we just have sensible gun laws. Basically you can have a non-automatic shotgun or rifle as long as you agree to regular stringent inspections. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_K...
  - collyw 11y ago
    Yes, it was a bit of a generalisation. You wouldn't expect people to hve a gun in their house in the UK unlike the US.

hemdawgz 11y ago

umanwizard 11y ago

I'm the first to admit that American policing is overly violent and militaristic, but I do think your experience was unrepresentative. I have been to many parties in the US that were broken up due to noise complaints. It was always more like your Whitechapel example than your Gainsville one.