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If it were still up and running, I'd link you to regretsy.com for a primer on most people's level of creativity. But it's gone so now all I can say is that it s

If it were still up and running, I'd link you to regretsy.com for a primer on most people's level of creativity. But it's gone so now all I can say is that it showed the worst "user-generated stuff" people posted to Etsy. Not buying it - we have specialization and professionalization in part to maintain quality of work. Everyone cannot be, and should not be, an artist. Anyways, if no one had to work, most people would just do drugs.

sytelus 11y ago
No one says everybody needs to be creative or artists or mathematicians or scientists. All I'm saying is human life is too precious to keep assembling iPhones for 12 hours a day or bag groceries at Walmart. I think assertion that everyone start doing drugs if they need not do jobs shows utter and incomprehensible ignorance. Sure, not all are creative but that's not the requirement to have a life without mandatory jobs you don't want to do. People may turn in to beach bums or surfers or just hippy wanderers - whatever. It's their life they got one shot at living and it's still better activity than forcing them to flip burgers mechanically at McDonnalds 10 hours a day.
kaybe 11y ago
If they had fun making it, why not? Not everyone will go to the Olympics..
- jackcosgrove 11y ago
  People aren't thinking enough about what life would be like with no responsibilities. The sort of internal reward you're describing would be hollow because people would still see others' work that was better than theirs, and they would feel jealous. And ultimately everyone would know that it was all a sham, and that humanity was unnecessary and living in a zoo of its own creation. Most of my sense of self comes from overcoming obstacles, and I'm sure a lot of people would agree with that sentiment. I'm all for automation and AI doing the grunt work, but I don't want to live in a zoo. We should take the benefits of automation and continue to struggle and exert ourselves, and seek out greater challenges than we could before. Automation as an escape from work? I'll pass.
  - xnxn 11y ago
    > The sort of internal reward you're describing would be hollow because people would still see others' work that was better than theirs, and they would feel jealous. Well, that's the status quo. > Most of my sense of self comes from overcoming obstacles, and I'm sure a lot of people would agree with that sentiment. [...] Automation as an escape from work? I'll pass. You would be welcome to work as much as you like, of course. Obstacles would be self-selected, not assigned by chance or force. If you live in my hypothetical utopian society and truly feel that humanity must suffer so that you can derive meaning from "the struggle", you might have to emigrate to a polity of like-minded masochists.
    - jackcosgrove 11y ago
      I'm arguing we can't get away from the status quo. If everyone can follow their muse, muse-following will devolve into a pissing contest. And if some people choose to work and others don't, those who work will become wealthier/stronger/more advanced than those who don't. Then there will be conflict between the two. A surplus of resources does not eradicate human foibles. People were saying the same things in the Edwardian era about progress solving all of life's problems. Then we started World War I to a large degree because people were bored and wanted stimulation. This is just another utopian prediction that won't come true.
  - dclowd9901 11y ago
    Why do you think people wouldn't/couldn't challenge themselves in ways they care about (rather than arbitrary bullshit they have to do for someone else)? Why do you think challenge or accomplishment only comes from your 9-5 job? Have you ever done anything but work?
    - jackcosgrove 11y ago
      Lots of assumptions in your post. The work we do is not arbitrary bullshit. Civilization takes work to maintain and grow.
      - 11y ago
forgottenpass 11y ago
Anyways, if no one had to work, most people would just do drugs. And when people do have to work, they just alternate between drugs that make them better workers, and drugs that let them forget work.
- Florin_Andrei 11y ago
  It seems like the basic blueprint of the human being, at every level, requires a certain amount of constant stress to function properly, an external challenge to the capabilities or even integrity of the system. At every level. Purely physical (motion), immunity, emotional level, intellectual level, etc. Unless we change the blueprint in a massive way, we won't do well in a life of complete leisure.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
    What humans consider leisure is simply enjoyable work. If there is no "work" work and just leisure, we're fine. But not if there's nothing to do at all.
Udik 11y ago
Obligatory reading here: Riders of the purple wage, by Philip José Farmer.

sytelus 11y ago

No one says everybody needs to be creative or artists or mathematicians or scientists. All I'm saying is human life is too precious to keep assembling iPhones for 12 hours a day or bag groceries at Walmart. I think assertion that everyone start doing drugs if they need not do jobs shows utter and incomprehensible ignorance. Sure, not all are creative but that's not the requirement to have a life without mandatory jobs you don't want to do. People may turn in to beach bums or surfers or just hippy wanderers - whatever. It's their life they got one shot at living and it's still better activity than forcing them to flip burgers mechanically at McDonnalds 10 hours a day.

kaybe 11y ago

If they had fun making it, why not? Not everyone will go to the Olympics..

jackcosgrove 11y ago
People aren't thinking enough about what life would be like with no responsibilities. The sort of internal reward you're describing would be hollow because people would still see others' work that was better than theirs, and they would feel jealous. And ultimately everyone would know that it was all a sham, and that humanity was unnecessary and living in a zoo of its own creation. Most of my sense of self comes from overcoming obstacles, and I'm sure a lot of people would agree with that sentiment. I'm all for automation and AI doing the grunt work, but I don't want to live in a zoo. We should take the benefits of automation and continue to struggle and exert ourselves, and seek out greater challenges than we could before. Automation as an escape from work? I'll pass.
- xnxn 11y ago
  > The sort of internal reward you're describing would be hollow because people would still see others' work that was better than theirs, and they would feel jealous. Well, that's the status quo. > Most of my sense of self comes from overcoming obstacles, and I'm sure a lot of people would agree with that sentiment. [...] Automation as an escape from work? I'll pass. You would be welcome to work as much as you like, of course. Obstacles would be self-selected, not assigned by chance or force. If you live in my hypothetical utopian society and truly feel that humanity must suffer so that you can derive meaning from "the struggle", you might have to emigrate to a polity of like-minded masochists.
  - jackcosgrove 11y ago
    I'm arguing we can't get away from the status quo. If everyone can follow their muse, muse-following will devolve into a pissing contest. And if some people choose to work and others don't, those who work will become wealthier/stronger/more advanced than those who don't. Then there will be conflict between the two. A surplus of resources does not eradicate human foibles. People were saying the same things in the Edwardian era about progress solving all of life's problems. Then we started World War I to a large degree because people were bored and wanted stimulation. This is just another utopian prediction that won't come true.
- dclowd9901 11y ago
  Why do you think people wouldn't/couldn't challenge themselves in ways they care about (rather than arbitrary bullshit they have to do for someone else)? Why do you think challenge or accomplishment only comes from your 9-5 job? Have you ever done anything but work?
  - jackcosgrove 11y ago
    Lots of assumptions in your post. The work we do is not arbitrary bullshit. Civilization takes work to maintain and grow.
    - 11y ago

forgottenpass 11y ago

Anyways, if no one had to work, most people would just do drugs. And when people do have to work, they just alternate between drugs that make them better workers, and drugs that let them forget work.

Florin_Andrei 11y ago
It seems like the basic blueprint of the human being, at every level, requires a certain amount of constant stress to function properly, an external challenge to the capabilities or even integrity of the system. At every level. Purely physical (motion), immunity, emotional level, intellectual level, etc. Unless we change the blueprint in a massive way, we won't do well in a life of complete leisure.
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  What humans consider leisure is simply enjoyable work. If there is no "work" work and just leisure, we're fine. But not if there's nothing to do at all.

Udik 11y ago

Obligatory reading here: Riders of the purple wage, by Philip José Farmer.