6 ms·

Apple Pay is just a nice frontend for Visa, AmEx, etc., with better security - disposable credit card numbers to defeat merchant tracking and leaks.

ctdonath 11y ago
Also faster. Double-tap watch or iPhone button, wave device near register, done. Fast. That vs Walmart Pay tap iPhone button, [swipe to find icon,] tap icon, wait for app, tap scan button, position camera for QR code, wait for focus & recognize, done. Too long. I tried Walmart's Scan-and-Go app. Idea was you could scan all your stuff before reaching the register, scan one QR code, pay, and leave. Took an inordinately long time. Walmart dumped it. Edit: actually there has been a "tap to pay" available at many places. All too often it was turned off, and mildly confusing which cards had it (I had one that did, then its replacement card didn't, so there I was waving a non-tap card at a tap reader). The whole tech fizzled.
- oneJob 11y ago
  My AmEx card has had tap-to-pay functionality for years now. I keep it in my wallet where it is nearest the outside and can use without removing from my wallet. Easy. No buttons. No QR codes. And it's old tech. Still not seeing the obvious argument for throwing such an important piece of my public persona (personal finances and credit) into the same basket as my cell phone.
  - jonknee 11y ago
    > Still not seeing the obvious argument for throwing such an important piece of my public persona (personal finances and credit) into the same basket as my cell phone. Having it as part of your cell phone makes it much more secure (Apple Pay requires your fingerprint for it to work). Contactless cards can get skimmed: http://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/jul/23/contactless-card-is-too-easy-says-which http://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/jul/23/contactless-car...
  - cballard 11y ago
    Your cell phone's data is protected by a fingerprint reader or arbitrary-length passcode, while your wallet's data is protected by the other person not having a knife.
    - cperciva 11y ago
      Your wallet is protected by the other person not having a knife. Your cell phone's data is protected by the other person not being willing to use their knife to cut off one of your fingers. ;-)
      - cballard 11y ago
        Muggers are still stealing iOS devices, which people can just permanently brick via iCloud now, so I wouldn't expect that level of foresight!
        r00fus 11y ago
        Parts are parts and iOS devices have a lot of non-commodity parts that can't get "bricked".
        UVB-76 11y ago
        I was under the impression we don't have international blacklisting, so there's still money to be made shipping handsets abroad?
      - Bud 11y ago
        Nope. TouchID doesn't work with a dead finger. Has to be alive. http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/16/why-a-disembodied-finger-cant-be-used-to-unlock-the-touch-id-se/ http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/16/why-a-disembodied-finger-...
        cperciva 11y ago
        I wasn't really being serious. But in practice such liveness sensors are incredibly easy to defeat.
  - rosege 11y ago
    careful doing that, i know someone who had 2 cards with nfc and was getting charged double - surprised the system somehow allowed it
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- alistairSH 11y ago
  Edit: actually there has been a "tap to pay" available at many places. ... I had one that did, then its replacement card didn't, so there I was waving a non-tap card at a tap reader. The whole tech fizzled. Argh. I had the same thing happen. Just after getting used to using the tap-to-pay card, my bank replaced it with a "dumb" card and I was back to swiping it.
- skrowl 11y ago
  Apple blocks 3rd party apps from using NFC. It's literally only usable in Apple Pay. Walmart can't implement it in an iOS app even if they wanted to.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    What would implementing it in an iOS app even mean? If Walmart wants to support Apple Pay, they just need to use credit card terminals that can do NFC. Is the idea that if Walmart could implement it in their app, they could allow you to pay with some custom Walmart account instead of a credit card?
    - Swd120 11y ago
      The point of companies having their own service like this, is so that the kickback to the charge company goes to them instead. So instead of 1% of all mobile purchases going to Apple, it goes to walmart instead. With the scale of business Walmart had that can be upwards of a billion dollars a year.
- Robadob 11y ago
  Tesco in the UK have Scan-as-you-Shop, which sounds similar to your Scan-and-Go, the prime difference would be that you are given a dedicated device for doing the scanning rather than requiring you phone. I've used this regularly for the past few months and had no real issues with it.
oneJob 11y ago
"Apple (AAPL, Tech30) gets just 15 cents for every $100 in Apple Pay transactions, according to Gillis."[1] In addition to the minor surcharge, there is the (opportunity) cost of Apple's hardware, the costs to vendors of supporting (yet) another platform, the consumer provides value to Apple in the form of consumer information, the consumer now has their fingerprint tied to payments, and then there is everything that goes along with the terms and conditions. Regarding the security, I'm not sure what the details are, but it seems that the attack surface is increased substantially. I'd personally prefer to have Visa, AmEx, etc reviewing and resolving fraud and other claims, seeing as how they've been doing it for decades and their bottom line depends on it, whereas Apple is relatively new to the game and Apple's bottom line does not depend on it. Apple Pay might be awesome. Idk. But it's not "just a nice frontend for Visa, AmEx, etc., with better security". [1]http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/26/technology/apple-pay/ http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/26/technology/apple-pay/
- joebolte 11y ago
  You are very misinformed about Apple Pay, and the poster you are replying to is correct. CC networks pay the Apple Pay surcharge, not customers or vendors. To vendors, Apple Pay looks like a regular NFC transaction, except with a one-time card number, so there is no danger of the kind of hacks that happened to Target, Home Depot, and many other retailers. Apple has nothing at all to do with "reviewing and resolving fraud and other claims." The CC networks still do this.
  - oneJob 11y ago
    When I buy a burrito and then look at a receipt (as I always do after buying a burrito) I do not see the visa surcharge, or any others. I see tax but that's it. At the end of the day, the consumer pays, because there is no free lunch, there are no free burritos. I may have made an incorrect assumption regarding claims handling, though I'm not sure how that translates me to being "very misinformed". I wasn't speaking only from the vendor perspective (idk what it looks like to them) or the Apple Pay customer's perspective (I'm not one of their customers) but I highly doubt it's worth my time to research to confirm that adding Apple Pay into the mix does not somehow increase the attack surface or how it does not somehow increase the amount of my personal information that is with Apple.
superuser2 11y ago
Indeed, and *Pay / CurrentC / Venmo / Square Cash / Dwolla are all just nice frontends for ACH.
mukmuk 11y ago
I think this is a common misperception regarding Apple Pay - it actually does not use disposable credit card numbers. Apple Pay generates a Device Account Number (DAN) once when you add a card to your phone's wallet. Thereafter, the same DAN is reused on that device for all transactions with that card. So it actually does not do much to defeat merchant tracking, assuming you consistently use Apple Pay where it is available.

ctdonath 11y ago

Also faster. Double-tap watch or iPhone button, wave device near register, done. Fast. That vs Walmart Pay tap iPhone button, [swipe to find icon,] tap icon, wait for app, tap scan button, position camera for QR code, wait for focus & recognize, done. Too long. I tried Walmart's Scan-and-Go app. Idea was you could scan all your stuff before reaching the register, scan one QR code, pay, and leave. Took an inordinately long time. Walmart dumped it. Edit: actually there has been a "tap to pay" available at many places. All too often it was turned off, and mildly confusing which cards had it (I had one that did, then its replacement card didn't, so there I was waving a non-tap card at a tap reader). The whole tech fizzled.

oneJob 11y ago
My AmEx card has had tap-to-pay functionality for years now. I keep it in my wallet where it is nearest the outside and can use without removing from my wallet. Easy. No buttons. No QR codes. And it's old tech. Still not seeing the obvious argument for throwing such an important piece of my public persona (personal finances and credit) into the same basket as my cell phone.
- jonknee 11y ago
  > Still not seeing the obvious argument for throwing such an important piece of my public persona (personal finances and credit) into the same basket as my cell phone. Having it as part of your cell phone makes it much more secure (Apple Pay requires your fingerprint for it to work). Contactless cards can get skimmed: http://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/jul/23/contactless-card-is-too-easy-says-which http://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/jul/23/contactless-car...
- cballard 11y ago
  Your cell phone's data is protected by a fingerprint reader or arbitrary-length passcode, while your wallet's data is protected by the other person not having a knife.
  - cperciva 11y ago
    Your wallet is protected by the other person not having a knife. Your cell phone's data is protected by the other person not being willing to use their knife to cut off one of your fingers. ;-)
    - cballard 11y ago
      Muggers are still stealing iOS devices, which people can just permanently brick via iCloud now, so I wouldn't expect that level of foresight!
      - r00fus 11y ago
        Parts are parts and iOS devices have a lot of non-commodity parts that can't get "bricked".
      - UVB-76 11y ago
        I was under the impression we don't have international blacklisting, so there's still money to be made shipping handsets abroad?
    - Bud 11y ago
      Nope. TouchID doesn't work with a dead finger. Has to be alive. http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/16/why-a-disembodied-finger-cant-be-used-to-unlock-the-touch-id-se/ http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/16/why-a-disembodied-finger-...
      - cperciva 11y ago
        I wasn't really being serious. But in practice such liveness sensors are incredibly easy to defeat.
- rosege 11y ago
  careful doing that, i know someone who had 2 cards with nfc and was getting charged double - surprised the system somehow allowed it
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
alistairSH 11y ago
Edit: actually there has been a "tap to pay" available at many places. ... I had one that did, then its replacement card didn't, so there I was waving a non-tap card at a tap reader. The whole tech fizzled. Argh. I had the same thing happen. Just after getting used to using the tap-to-pay card, my bank replaced it with a "dumb" card and I was back to swiping it.
skrowl 11y ago
Apple blocks 3rd party apps from using NFC. It's literally only usable in Apple Pay. Walmart can't implement it in an iOS app even if they wanted to.
- mikeash 11y ago
  What would implementing it in an iOS app even mean? If Walmart wants to support Apple Pay, they just need to use credit card terminals that can do NFC. Is the idea that if Walmart could implement it in their app, they could allow you to pay with some custom Walmart account instead of a credit card?
  - Swd120 11y ago
    The point of companies having their own service like this, is so that the kickback to the charge company goes to them instead. So instead of 1% of all mobile purchases going to Apple, it goes to walmart instead. With the scale of business Walmart had that can be upwards of a billion dollars a year.
Robadob 11y ago
Tesco in the UK have Scan-as-you-Shop, which sounds similar to your Scan-and-Go, the prime difference would be that you are given a dedicated device for doing the scanning rather than requiring you phone. I've used this regularly for the past few months and had no real issues with it.

oneJob 11y ago

"Apple (AAPL, Tech30) gets just 15 cents for every $100 in Apple Pay transactions, according to Gillis."[1] In addition to the minor surcharge, there is the (opportunity) cost of Apple's hardware, the costs to vendors of supporting (yet) another platform, the consumer provides value to Apple in the form of consumer information, the consumer now has their fingerprint tied to payments, and then there is everything that goes along with the terms and conditions. Regarding the security, I'm not sure what the details are, but it seems that the attack surface is increased substantially. I'd personally prefer to have Visa, AmEx, etc reviewing and resolving fraud and other claims, seeing as how they've been doing it for decades and their bottom line depends on it, whereas Apple is relatively new to the game and Apple's bottom line does not depend on it. Apple Pay might be awesome. Idk. But it's not "just a nice frontend for Visa, AmEx, etc., with better security". [1]http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/26/technology/apple-pay/ http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/26/technology/apple-pay/

joebolte 11y ago
You are very misinformed about Apple Pay, and the poster you are replying to is correct. CC networks pay the Apple Pay surcharge, not customers or vendors. To vendors, Apple Pay looks like a regular NFC transaction, except with a one-time card number, so there is no danger of the kind of hacks that happened to Target, Home Depot, and many other retailers. Apple has nothing at all to do with "reviewing and resolving fraud and other claims." The CC networks still do this.
- oneJob 11y ago
  When I buy a burrito and then look at a receipt (as I always do after buying a burrito) I do not see the visa surcharge, or any others. I see tax but that's it. At the end of the day, the consumer pays, because there is no free lunch, there are no free burritos. I may have made an incorrect assumption regarding claims handling, though I'm not sure how that translates me to being "very misinformed". I wasn't speaking only from the vendor perspective (idk what it looks like to them) or the Apple Pay customer's perspective (I'm not one of their customers) but I highly doubt it's worth my time to research to confirm that adding Apple Pay into the mix does not somehow increase the attack surface or how it does not somehow increase the amount of my personal information that is with Apple.

superuser2 11y ago

Indeed, and *Pay / CurrentC / Venmo / Square Cash / Dwolla are all just nice frontends for ACH.

mukmuk 11y ago

I think this is a common misperception regarding Apple Pay - it actually does not use disposable credit card numbers. Apple Pay generates a Device Account Number (DAN) once when you add a card to your phone's wallet. Thereafter, the same DAN is reused on that device for all transactions with that card. So it actually does not do much to defeat merchant tracking, assuming you consistently use Apple Pay where it is available.