23 ms·

Everyone is tearing you apart, but this is normal in Japan.

simoncion 11y ago
According to this [0], the average one-way commute time in Japan is a bit over 50 minutes. So, no. A 120 minute one-way commute time is not normal in Japan. [0] http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/14/world-of-commuters/?_r=0 http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/14/world-of-commut...
- ectoplasm 11y ago
  Yeah, ok, fair enough. First, I was conflating Tokyo with Japan. Second, by normal I meant "culturally accepted" so maybe I shoulda just said that. But you know, normal kinda also means "within 3 sigma" as well as "mean". These data for Tokyo are interesting: http://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/2014/02/20/124942 http://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/2014/02/20/124942 and this one for Japan paints a more vague but differently interesting picture: http://www.japan-guide.com/topic/0011.html http://www.japan-guide.com/topic/0011.html Really, it's not unusual to meet a salaryman with a 2-hour commute.
  - Apocryphon 11y ago
    I don't think we should be trying to emulate Japan in this respect. I don't think the Japanese themselves want this sort of life.
    - ectoplasm 11y ago
      Yeah, me neither... but I don't think blaming commuters like ryandrake for advocating their lifestyle is the answer. Different people have different priorities. You wouldn't sneer at OP for working 60-hour weeks (it's glorified in the valley), but that's what a 40-hour work week with a 4-hour daily commute amounts to. I dunno, maintaining a separation between work and home can be healthy.
      - Apocryphon 11y ago
        Truthfully, I think we're getting to the point where there's a backlash against 60 workweeks. You can see it in the comments that are on HN. Devs are getting disgruntled at the "perpetual college all-nighter" coding culture, even as they feel they're not getting properly compensated by startups. But that's a different comment thread for a different future story.
      - simoncion 11y ago
        > You wouldn't sneer at OP for working 60-hour weeks... Sneer? No. Pity and feel sorry for? Unless he was getting a really big payout from all that work, absolutely. Because: > ... that's what a 40-hour work week with a 4-hour daily commute amounts to. Don't give up half of 5/7ths of your leisure time on anything that doesn't richly reward you.
        ectoplasm 11y ago
        It's not 5/7ths, you're awake for 16 hours: 8 work, 8 leisure. This means on 5 out of 7 days, half of your leisure time is gone. So if you burn 4 commuting then you've given up 20 hours out of 40 + 2 * 16 on the weekends = 72, which is 28% vs. your 71%. Personally I would never do it, but like, different strokes. Also, define richly. Assume monthly savings of $2000/month on housing, call it $500 / week, that's $25 an hour. Plenty of people make less than that, so again it's just priorities.
        simoncion 11y ago
        > It's not 5/7ths... I know. That's why I said: "Don't give up half of 5/7ths of your leisure time..." > Also, define richly. For the purposes of that analysis, I can only define it for myself. My "richly" is probably not going to be the same as someone else's "richly". What's more, as we age its definition is very much likely to change. One thing's for certain: a "lost wage" analysis is probably going to grossly underestimate the value of the lost time for a lot of people.
        11y ago
  - simoncion 11y ago
    > ... I was conflating Tokyo with Japan. ... These data for Tokyo are interesting: > http://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/2014/02/20/124942 http://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/2014/02/20/124942 Those data for all of Japan (not Tokyo(!)) put the median commute time somewhere around 44 minutes, the max commute time at 90 minutes, and the average commute time at 57 minutes. That is totally in line with what I reported in my comment. Did you maybe mean to link to [0]? If you did, then that survey tells us that of the 583 Tokyo respondents: * 2.9% have a 120+ minute commute. * 17% have a commute between 90 and 119 minutes. * 66% have a commute shorter than 70 minutes. * 20% have a commute between 60 and 69 minutes. This is the most frequent commute bucket. Second is 50->59 (14.9%). Third is 40->49 (13.89%). Fourth is 70->79 (13.03%). > Really, it's not unusual to meet a salaryman with a 2-hour commute. If only 3% of a population has a property, that property is actually pretty unusual. > ...and this one for Japan paints a more vague but differently interesting picture: From that page: "About half of the Japanese respondents indicated that they need less than 30 minutes to go to work/school. On the other hand, one fourth of the respondents need more than one hour." To break it down: ~50% < 30 minutes ~25% >= 30 minutes but <= 60 minutes ~25% > 60 minutes That doesn't mesh with the official stats for the country. > But you know, normal kinda also means "within 3 sigma" as well as "mean". It's a pity that the standard deviation of the reported figures was not reported. I gather that it's hard to determine what is within 3 SD of the mean without that information. [0] http://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/2014/08/05/231455 http://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/2014/08/05/231455
    - ectoplasm 11y ago
      I didn't link to the wrong thing. If you read that article the top cities excluding Nara are all in greater Tokyo. The max time for Kanagawa is not reported, the average time for Kanagawa is 90 minutes (for men with kids under 6). Your calculations are median / max / average of averages. +/- 3 sigma = 99.7% of the sample, and we know 3% is > 2 hours (for all of Japan, not Tokyo). There's near the same percentage of LGBT adults in the US (~4%). All we're arguing over is the use of the word normal. Would you be happier with "uncommon but not an extreme outlier"?
      - simoncion 11y ago

According to this [0], the average one-way commute time in Japan is a bit over 50 minutes. So, no. A 120 minute one-way commute time is not normal in Japan. [0] http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/14/world-of-commuters/?_r=0 http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/14/world-of-commut...

ectoplasm 11y ago
Yeah, ok, fair enough. First, I was conflating Tokyo with Japan. Second, by normal I meant "culturally accepted" so maybe I shoulda just said that. But you know, normal kinda also means "within 3 sigma" as well as "mean". These data for Tokyo are interesting: http://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/2014/02/20/124942 http://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/2014/02/20/124942 and this one for Japan paints a more vague but differently interesting picture: http://www.japan-guide.com/topic/0011.html http://www.japan-guide.com/topic/0011.html Really, it's not unusual to meet a salaryman with a 2-hour commute.
- Apocryphon 11y ago
  I don't think we should be trying to emulate Japan in this respect. I don't think the Japanese themselves want this sort of life.
  - ectoplasm 11y ago
    Yeah, me neither... but I don't think blaming commuters like ryandrake for advocating their lifestyle is the answer. Different people have different priorities. You wouldn't sneer at OP for working 60-hour weeks (it's glorified in the valley), but that's what a 40-hour work week with a 4-hour daily commute amounts to. I dunno, maintaining a separation between work and home can be healthy.
    - Apocryphon 11y ago
      Truthfully, I think we're getting to the point where there's a backlash against 60 workweeks. You can see it in the comments that are on HN. Devs are getting disgruntled at the "perpetual college all-nighter" coding culture, even as they feel they're not getting properly compensated by startups. But that's a different comment thread for a different future story.
    - simoncion 11y ago
      > You wouldn't sneer at OP for working 60-hour weeks... Sneer? No. Pity and feel sorry for? Unless he was getting a really big payout from all that work, absolutely. Because: > ... that's what a 40-hour work week with a 4-hour daily commute amounts to. Don't give up half of 5/7ths of your leisure time on anything that doesn't richly reward you.
      - ectoplasm 11y ago
        It's not 5/7ths, you're awake for 16 hours: 8 work, 8 leisure. This means on 5 out of 7 days, half of your leisure time is gone. So if you burn 4 commuting then you've given up 20 hours out of 40 + 2 * 16 on the weekends = 72, which is 28% vs. your 71%. Personally I would never do it, but like, different strokes. Also, define richly. Assume monthly savings of $2000/month on housing, call it $500 / week, that's $25 an hour. Plenty of people make less than that, so again it's just priorities.
        simoncion 11y ago
        > It's not 5/7ths... I know. That's why I said: "Don't give up half of 5/7ths of your leisure time..." > Also, define richly. For the purposes of that analysis, I can only define it for myself. My "richly" is probably not going to be the same as someone else's "richly". What's more, as we age its definition is very much likely to change. One thing's for certain: a "lost wage" analysis is probably going to grossly underestimate the value of the lost time for a lot of people.
        11y ago
- simoncion 11y ago
  > ... I was conflating Tokyo with Japan. ... These data for Tokyo are interesting: > http://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/2014/02/20/124942 http://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/2014/02/20/124942 Those data for all of Japan (not Tokyo(!)) put the median commute time somewhere around 44 minutes, the max commute time at 90 minutes, and the average commute time at 57 minutes. That is totally in line with what I reported in my comment. Did you maybe mean to link to [0]? If you did, then that survey tells us that of the 583 Tokyo respondents: * 2.9% have a 120+ minute commute. * 17% have a commute between 90 and 119 minutes. * 66% have a commute shorter than 70 minutes. * 20% have a commute between 60 and 69 minutes. This is the most frequent commute bucket. Second is 50->59 (14.9%). Third is 40->49 (13.89%). Fourth is 70->79 (13.03%). > Really, it's not unusual to meet a salaryman with a 2-hour commute. If only 3% of a population has a property, that property is actually pretty unusual. > ...and this one for Japan paints a more vague but differently interesting picture: From that page: "About half of the Japanese respondents indicated that they need less than 30 minutes to go to work/school. On the other hand, one fourth of the respondents need more than one hour." To break it down: ~50% < 30 minutes ~25% >= 30 minutes but <= 60 minutes ~25% > 60 minutes That doesn't mesh with the official stats for the country. > But you know, normal kinda also means "within 3 sigma" as well as "mean". It's a pity that the standard deviation of the reported figures was not reported. I gather that it's hard to determine what is within 3 SD of the mean without that information. [0] http://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/2014/08/05/231455 http://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/2014/08/05/231455
  - ectoplasm 11y ago
    I didn't link to the wrong thing. If you read that article the top cities excluding Nara are all in greater Tokyo. The max time for Kanagawa is not reported, the average time for Kanagawa is 90 minutes (for men with kids under 6). Your calculations are median / max / average of averages. +/- 3 sigma = 99.7% of the sample, and we know 3% is > 2 hours (for all of Japan, not Tokyo). There's near the same percentage of LGBT adults in the US (~4%). All we're arguing over is the use of the word normal. Would you be happier with "uncommon but not an extreme outlier"?
    - simoncion 11y ago