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> Artwohl compares police work to defensive driving, which is about “expecting something bad is going to happen. It’s not about dealing with normal traffic flow

by logn 11y ago

> Artwohl compares police work to defensive driving, which is about “expecting something bad is going to happen. It’s not about dealing with normal traffic flow.” > “We should go out there and expect something bad will happen and watch for it,” she said. “If we are not paying attention, we could die.” If that's how she views defensive driving it might shed some light on her approach to policing. I don't think defensive driving means expecting that at any moment something horrible can happen. It's more about being aware, anticipating events, preventing problems, and having a plan B. And it's very much part of dealing with normal traffic flow, responding to common road conditions in a defensive way that prevents problems or at least offers you a good response should a problem occur.

gknoy 11y ago
I think she's entirely correct. I consider "defensive driving" not to be about expecting horrible things, but rather thinking about (and taking action to mitigate) unsafe events. I explicitly distrust other drivers, more than might be considered reasonable, specifically because there have been times that, had I not been so pessimistic, either I would have been injured or my vehicle damaged. - I distrust turn signals. I've seen too many people approach an intersection that I want to turn into that had forgotten to turn their signal off. I believe it when I see your car change course, or start braking. (I also live in an area where many people don't bother to use them in the first place.) - I assume most people are speeding, and am conservative about pulling out in front of oncoming traffic -- which has saved my bacon when my car has stalled. - I assume people on the freeway going faster than me will cut in front if me. Strangely, this _reduces_ my stress while driving, as I am not surprised when it happens. - I approach my car from the front, so that I can see oncoming traffic before stepping into the road. Being prepared for statistical outliers is important, because as a driver (or as a police officer) you have many encounters in the course of your career -- and your cumulative chance of encountering such an outlier increases the longer your career.
- gozo 11y ago
  Yes, defensive driving is about having higher margins. Which is where her comparison falls short. Because police often escalate the situation to get the upper hand on a perceived threat. Which is more like tactical driving, where you e.g. drive in a convoy at high speed to avoid getting stopped. If there is no real threat you have most likely made the situation worse.
- Tiksi 11y ago
  A couple years ago I was considering getting a bike and mentioned the idea to a friend that is pretty experienced to get some advice. I decided against it in the end, but his advice stuck with me. "Always make sure you ride like everyone on the road is actively trying to kill you." I started applying the idea to driving and it's saved me from accidents quite a few times.
arca_vorago 11y ago
"I don't think defensive driving means expecting that at any moment something horrible can happen. It's more about being aware, anticipating events, preventing problems, and having a plan B." "anticipating events" I feel like maybe you are just making quick conversation, but do you not see the contradiction? I used to ride a motorcycle everywhere, and I took some pretty advanced motorcycle courses while in the military (on par with motorcycle cop courses), and me riding defensively certainly is me anticipating horrible events and avoiding them. I think one downside to the evolution of car safety is that what it turns people who drive all the time (don't walk, ride bikes or motorcycles) into what motorcyclist call "cagers"... that is they don't see anything smaller than their vehicle, and that they have a lack of respect for the power of a vehicle. So I keep an eye out particularly for "cagers". Example, me going down access road, I see soccer-mom suv 400 yards up ready to right hand turn into same lane, I notice kids in the back and vehicle nudging forward indicating it's in a rush... I am going to eagle eye the intentions of that vehicle and have already shifted my weight and moved further to the left in the lane. If I failed to do these things, and the vehicle pulled out in front of me... I would most likely be dead on the spot. Now, back to the subject, I think the real point is that you should be able to read a situation and expect the worst but hope for the best, and use your skills to respond in a way the de-escalates and reduces risk to all involved, and it is that last part that the majority of police are failing to do. A lot of my old buddies went contractor (aka mercenary), but a few did join the force. I always told them I knew I couldn't be a police officer because I had such a muscle memory for killing... I think the real problem is that we have allowed a military people who got used to occupation operations to transition into police work without correcting that mind-set for how they interact with people. We are not in a war zone here... and we don't want to make it one either! (which seems to be what is happening) Police officers should be peace officers, not storm troopers. While I'm on the subject, I have two very particular gripes with current police conduct: 1. Lack of trigger discipline and willingness to unholster their weapon, and lack of barrel discipline once their weapon is out. 2. Unconstitutional police methods such as no-knock warrants, often hitting the wrong house which could have been avoided with some simple police work. You combine the two and you get something like my brother in arms in Arizona, a Marine who was shot at least 22 times by a bunch of undisciplined trigger heavy fucktards posing as a SWAT team. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/jose-guerena-arizona-_n_867020.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/jose-guerena-arizon... http://www.policestateusa.com/2013/jose-guerena-settlement/ http://www.policestateusa.com/2013/jose-guerena-settlement/
Swannie 11y ago
Brit here, with many years driving experience in the UK and Australia, and multiple months driving in the USA and Israel. The depressing thing about "Defensive Driving" is that it is essentially good driving sense. Reading about defensive driving, it's clear to me that it is a concept that is expected to be taught in many countries driver education programs - and consequently tested for. And it's definitely missing from most USA state's driver education/testing regime. I've just got back from a week in the USA, and the constant accidents that cause huge traffic congestion is really not a surprise at all given how terrible the state of driving in the bay area is. Driving whilst assuming that other drivers on the road are not going to act consistently is good driving in normal traffic. Do I expect drivers to pull out in front of me, to stop suddenly, etc? Well, yes, if the drivers behaviour has suggested as much. Being observant and watching the behaviour of cars approaching from behind, or cars you are catching up to, gives you clues. More clues come from the conditions, time of day, car, etc.

by logn 11y ago

gknoy 11y ago

I think she's entirely correct. I consider "defensive driving" not to be about expecting horrible things, but rather thinking about (and taking action to mitigate) unsafe events. I explicitly distrust other drivers, more than might be considered reasonable, specifically because there have been times that, had I not been so pessimistic, either I would have been injured or my vehicle damaged. - I distrust turn signals. I've seen too many people approach an intersection that I want to turn into that had forgotten to turn their signal off. I believe it when I see your car change course, or start braking. (I also live in an area where many people don't bother to use them in the first place.) - I assume most people are speeding, and am conservative about pulling out in front of oncoming traffic -- which has saved my bacon when my car has stalled. - I assume people on the freeway going faster than me will cut in front if me. Strangely, this _reduces_ my stress while driving, as I am not surprised when it happens. - I approach my car from the front, so that I can see oncoming traffic before stepping into the road. Being prepared for statistical outliers is important, because as a driver (or as a police officer) you have many encounters in the course of your career -- and your cumulative chance of encountering such an outlier increases the longer your career.

gozo 11y ago
Yes, defensive driving is about having higher margins. Which is where her comparison falls short. Because police often escalate the situation to get the upper hand on a perceived threat. Which is more like tactical driving, where you e.g. drive in a convoy at high speed to avoid getting stopped. If there is no real threat you have most likely made the situation worse.
Tiksi 11y ago
A couple years ago I was considering getting a bike and mentioned the idea to a friend that is pretty experienced to get some advice. I decided against it in the end, but his advice stuck with me. "Always make sure you ride like everyone on the road is actively trying to kill you." I started applying the idea to driving and it's saved me from accidents quite a few times.

arca_vorago 11y ago

"I don't think defensive driving means expecting that at any moment something horrible can happen. It's more about being aware, anticipating events, preventing problems, and having a plan B." "anticipating events" I feel like maybe you are just making quick conversation, but do you not see the contradiction? I used to ride a motorcycle everywhere, and I took some pretty advanced motorcycle courses while in the military (on par with motorcycle cop courses), and me riding defensively certainly is me anticipating horrible events and avoiding them. I think one downside to the evolution of car safety is that what it turns people who drive all the time (don't walk, ride bikes or motorcycles) into what motorcyclist call "cagers"... that is they don't see anything smaller than their vehicle, and that they have a lack of respect for the power of a vehicle. So I keep an eye out particularly for "cagers". Example, me going down access road, I see soccer-mom suv 400 yards up ready to right hand turn into same lane, I notice kids in the back and vehicle nudging forward indicating it's in a rush... I am going to eagle eye the intentions of that vehicle and have already shifted my weight and moved further to the left in the lane. If I failed to do these things, and the vehicle pulled out in front of me... I would most likely be dead on the spot. Now, back to the subject, I think the real point is that you should be able to read a situation and expect the worst but hope for the best, and use your skills to respond in a way the de-escalates and reduces risk to all involved, and it is that last part that the majority of police are failing to do. A lot of my old buddies went contractor (aka mercenary), but a few did join the force. I always told them I knew I couldn't be a police officer because I had such a muscle memory for killing... I think the real problem is that we have allowed a military people who got used to occupation operations to transition into police work without correcting that mind-set for how they interact with people. We are not in a war zone here... and we don't want to make it one either! (which seems to be what is happening) Police officers should be peace officers, not storm troopers. While I'm on the subject, I have two very particular gripes with current police conduct: 1. Lack of trigger discipline and willingness to unholster their weapon, and lack of barrel discipline once their weapon is out. 2. Unconstitutional police methods such as no-knock warrants, often hitting the wrong house which could have been avoided with some simple police work. You combine the two and you get something like my brother in arms in Arizona, a Marine who was shot at least 22 times by a bunch of undisciplined trigger heavy fucktards posing as a SWAT team. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/jose-guerena-arizona-_n_867020.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/jose-guerena-arizon... http://www.policestateusa.com/2013/jose-guerena-settlement/ http://www.policestateusa.com/2013/jose-guerena-settlement/

Swannie 11y ago

Brit here, with many years driving experience in the UK and Australia, and multiple months driving in the USA and Israel. The depressing thing about "Defensive Driving" is that it is essentially good driving sense. Reading about defensive driving, it's clear to me that it is a concept that is expected to be taught in many countries driver education programs - and consequently tested for. And it's definitely missing from most USA state's driver education/testing regime. I've just got back from a week in the USA, and the constant accidents that cause huge traffic congestion is really not a surprise at all given how terrible the state of driving in the bay area is. Driving whilst assuming that other drivers on the road are not going to act consistently is good driving in normal traffic. Do I expect drivers to pull out in front of me, to stop suddenly, etc? Well, yes, if the drivers behaviour has suggested as much. Being observant and watching the behaviour of cars approaching from behind, or cars you are catching up to, gives you clues. More clues come from the conditions, time of day, car, etc.