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That's one issue. I still cannot seem to get my mind around another, though. Conceptually, I don't grasp how possibly exposing my PIN number at a point of sale

That's one issue. I still cannot seem to get my mind around another, though. Conceptually, I don't grasp how possibly exposing my PIN number at a point of sale is MORE secure. I just can't get past the idea that I'm now using the number I use to withdraw funds at an ATM at MORE places than just at my bank.

moheeb 11y ago
I've always had to enter my PIN when using my card...so I don't see it as any LESS secure. I doubt it will take much for you to get past it.
Swizec 11y ago
You're not exposing the PIN number. Properly designed card readers make the dialpad hard to read for anyone looking over your shoulders (you obscure it with your hand and there's a guard thingy around so they can't see your fingers). And the machine itself checks the PIN against the chip. No sending anywhere, no checking by the clerk. You only have to trust the machine itself. If you don't, you're fucked anyway because who says a hacked machine will only charge as much as it says it will? Card+signature is security by "something you have", Card+PIN is "something you have and something you know". That's much more secure. A signature isn't "something you know" because it's written on the card anyway. If it's not written on the card, then using the signature doesn't do anything in the first place. And nobody checks those signatures anyway. This is why for large purchases they ask to see your ID.
- jessaustin 11y ago
  If you don't, you're fucked anyway because who says a hacked machine will only charge as much as it says it will? If a machine charged you too much, either it would say so on the receipt and you could protest immediately, or the receipt wouldn't match the charge so you could protest later. Sure, the first few customers might get fucked, but soon the bad machine would be caught. OTOH if the machine processed the current transaction correctly while sending all your codes to the bad guys, it could do so until the store noticed its bad firmware, which could take years.
  - Swizec 11y ago
    So really it's just a matter of how sophisticated the hackers are. Add keylogger to get PINs. Add thug to get cards. Win. There's no way around trusting the machine itself.
    - tass 11y ago
      If someone physically steals a credit card, it's quite obvious to the owner of the card, and they can have it cancelled.
  - kalleboo 11y ago
    > OTOH if the machine processed the current transaction correctly while sending all your codes to the bad guys, it could do so until the store noticed its bad firmware, which could take years Banks already correlate fraud reports to where customers have used their cards to track down offending stores that skim cards. They don't have to find the bad firmware, they just have to see "well 10 customers had their cards skimmed, and the only store they had in common was that one"
- jonknee 11y ago
  Credit cards get skimmed by altered machines all the time, trusting the machine is the sketchy part. The nice part with mobile payments is you only have to trust your device. I'm pretty sure a mobster hasn't found my phone in the middle of the night and altered it. I am not so sure about a POS terminal at any random store. Target's POS got owned, why should I trust anyone else? If someone hacked the terminal I use for an Apple Pay transaction what exactly would happen? It's a one time token that gets passed to the terminal and I immediately get a push update about the transaction.
emilecantin 11y ago
Your PIN is actually checked locally by the card before it signs the transaction. Sure, you're vulnerable to a POS system stealing your PIN, but they can't really do anything with it unless they also have your card's private key, which is pretty much impossible to get off the card without destroying it. This is a huge improvement over what it was before, where you only had to copy the mag stripe info to clone the card.
- makomk 11y ago
  Someone can take that PIN and the magstripe data obtained from the card and use it to withdraw your money from ATMs that don't support Chip and PIN.
  - kalleboo 11y ago
    Which is why we need to get this adoption completed ASAP so we can eliminate the magstripes on our cards.

moheeb 11y ago

I've always had to enter my PIN when using my card...so I don't see it as any LESS secure. I doubt it will take much for you to get past it.

Swizec 11y ago

You're not exposing the PIN number. Properly designed card readers make the dialpad hard to read for anyone looking over your shoulders (you obscure it with your hand and there's a guard thingy around so they can't see your fingers). And the machine itself checks the PIN against the chip. No sending anywhere, no checking by the clerk. You only have to trust the machine itself. If you don't, you're fucked anyway because who says a hacked machine will only charge as much as it says it will? Card+signature is security by "something you have", Card+PIN is "something you have and something you know". That's much more secure. A signature isn't "something you know" because it's written on the card anyway. If it's not written on the card, then using the signature doesn't do anything in the first place. And nobody checks those signatures anyway. This is why for large purchases they ask to see your ID.

jessaustin 11y ago
If you don't, you're fucked anyway because who says a hacked machine will only charge as much as it says it will? If a machine charged you too much, either it would say so on the receipt and you could protest immediately, or the receipt wouldn't match the charge so you could protest later. Sure, the first few customers might get fucked, but soon the bad machine would be caught. OTOH if the machine processed the current transaction correctly while sending all your codes to the bad guys, it could do so until the store noticed its bad firmware, which could take years.
- Swizec 11y ago
  So really it's just a matter of how sophisticated the hackers are. Add keylogger to get PINs. Add thug to get cards. Win. There's no way around trusting the machine itself.
  - tass 11y ago
    If someone physically steals a credit card, it's quite obvious to the owner of the card, and they can have it cancelled.
- kalleboo 11y ago
  > OTOH if the machine processed the current transaction correctly while sending all your codes to the bad guys, it could do so until the store noticed its bad firmware, which could take years Banks already correlate fraud reports to where customers have used their cards to track down offending stores that skim cards. They don't have to find the bad firmware, they just have to see "well 10 customers had their cards skimmed, and the only store they had in common was that one"
jonknee 11y ago
Credit cards get skimmed by altered machines all the time, trusting the machine is the sketchy part. The nice part with mobile payments is you only have to trust your device. I'm pretty sure a mobster hasn't found my phone in the middle of the night and altered it. I am not so sure about a POS terminal at any random store. Target's POS got owned, why should I trust anyone else? If someone hacked the terminal I use for an Apple Pay transaction what exactly would happen? It's a one time token that gets passed to the terminal and I immediately get a push update about the transaction.

emilecantin 11y ago

Your PIN is actually checked locally by the card before it signs the transaction. Sure, you're vulnerable to a POS system stealing your PIN, but they can't really do anything with it unless they also have your card's private key, which is pretty much impossible to get off the card without destroying it. This is a huge improvement over what it was before, where you only had to copy the mag stripe info to clone the card.

makomk 11y ago
Someone can take that PIN and the magstripe data obtained from the card and use it to withdraw your money from ATMs that don't support Chip and PIN.
- kalleboo 11y ago
  Which is why we need to get this adoption completed ASAP so we can eliminate the magstripes on our cards.