5 ms·

The topic is about violence. Feminists aren't violent; in fact they're a reaction against gender-based violence. > Yet, I strongly oppose feminism. I believe

The topic is about violence. Feminists aren't violent; in fact they're a reaction against gender-based violence. > Yet, I strongly oppose feminism. I believe in equality, but not equality for one gender or skin colour or sexual orientation. That means you're a feminist. I'm sorry you're not able to get your definitions straight. > Bullying is not required. Calling people out on their bullshit isn't bullying.

stcredzero 11y ago
Calling people out on their bullshit isn't bullying. When the effect is merely to pressure, and not to convince, then in that particular context, people who may have been legitimately oppressed have (temporarily) become the oppressors. The difference between calling people out on their bullshit versus bullying is this: In "calling people out" -- people are shown their self-contradiction in such a way that they are given a chance to better live up to their moral system. It becomes bullying when people are only vilified, placed in an irredeemable category, then effectively punished in some way.
- kaonashi 11y ago
  > When the effect is merely to pressure, and not to convince, then in that particular context, people who may have been legitimately oppressed have (temporarily) become the oppressors. Putting pressure on someone to behave themselves isn't oppression. You can't possibly have gone through life without seeing actual oppression. > It becomes bullying when people are only vilified, placed in an irredeemable category, then effectively punished in some way. Nobody is irredeemable; but some people don't want redemption. When people refuse to behave themselves, they get shunned. This is a normal human defense mechanism.
  - mring33621 11y ago
    You do realize that "behave themselves" is subjective?
    - kaonashi 11y ago
      Apparently when certain people exercise their subjectivity instead of remaining silent, it's bullying.
  - oxide 11y ago
    >When people refuse to behave themselves, they get shunned. and who decides what behavior is acceptable? you? don't make me laugh. you, and those like you, are bullies. plain and simple. cut and dry. black and white. some might even call you "thought-bullies."
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > Putting pressure on someone to behave themselves isn't oppression. Oppression is usually viewed by oppressors as putting pressure on the oppressed to behave properly.
    - kaonashi 11y ago
      Right, so like using the police to criminalize a minority population. Or the real estate industry colluding to keep out a minority from living in a certain area. Or asking someone not to wear a demeaning shirt. All totally the same thing.
      - oxide 11y ago
        what you are condoning is not politely asking, as if that ever got anything accomplished in this world. polite requests can be politely ignored. you are condoning bullying. bullying is threatening and demeaning in a way a shirt can only hope to one day accomplish, for the record.
        kaonashi 11y ago
        Threatened with what? Severe disappointment?
        stcredzero 11y ago
        Being excluded from a group is a pretty severe penalty, emotionally. Our instincts associate group membership with survival. Membership in groups can have significant impacts on the quality and status of contacts. If wearing a t-shirt once can make others feel uncomfortable and not included, and this situation is wrong, then it is also wrong to permanently or too severely sanction the t-shirt wearer. Such a situation should be discussed calmly and resolved.
  - stcredzero 11y ago
    You can't possibly have gone through life without seeing actual oppression. I have, in actuality, been the subject of ethnic/racially based harassment, to the point where the police got involved. (The perpetrators were caught, but I was pressured by the police to not file charges.) I grew up in a part of the country where the family had to drive 45 miles to visit with friends who were also asian, but not the exact same ethnic group. Yes, I know a little about actual oppression. Yes, there were other weird group hazings I experienced in my youth. When people refuse to behave themselves, they get shunned. This is a normal human defense mechanism. The default human reaction is to label the different as the wrong and the other. The normal human defense mechanism, when not properly cultivated and educated, is precisely the psychological foundation of oppression. I know this first hand. Do you know why the Freedom of Speech is enshrined in the US Constitution? It's precisely because normal human defense mechanisms result in the outright oppression of those with different points of view. And it's precisely this sort of lack of self-awareness and self-examination that allows normal people to take on the role of oppressor.
tomjen3 11y ago
>The topic is about violence. Feminists aren't violent; in fact they're a reaction against gender-based violence. This is board with many nerds. It is fair to say that we have all been bullied to some degree. Bullying may not be violent to the degree that it physically hits people over the head, but it is far more violent than anything feminism complains about. And Doctor Matt Taylor was bullied for what clothing he choose to wear. By feminists.
- kaonashi 11y ago
  > Bullying may not be violent to the degree that it physically hits people over the head Then it isn't violence. Bullying implies violence. You're describing something else.
  - breischl 11y ago
    >>Bullying implies violence. That is incorrect. Dictionary definition: "Persistent acts intended to make life unpleasant for another person." So if I followed you around HN for the rest of the week responding to all postings/comments with insults and browbeating, that would be completely non-violent but still bullying. https://www.wordnik.com/words/bullying https://www.wordnik.com/words/bullying
    - tangent128 11y ago
      Dictionary definitions inherently lag behind practical usage; I would have no problem classifying harassment as a non-physical class of violence. Especially given cases where it can be more damaging to a person than physical assaults against their meat.
    - kaonashi 11y ago
      I mean if we're going to use that definition, then the shirt itself was harassment. Or is it just if I'm oblivious to the harassment I cause & don't care to find out, then it's somehow morally superior to someone repeatedly and strenuously asking me to stop?
lsniddy 11y ago
> Yet, I strongly oppose feminism. I believe in equality, but not equality for one gender or skin color or sexual orientation. That means you're a feminist. I'm sorry you're not able to get your definitions straight. I disagree with that definition. I think that view means the parent poster is an educated, rational person. Are you sorry for me as well?
Lawtonfogle 11y ago
>That means you're a feminist. I'm sorry you're not able to get your definitions straight. Old school maybe. Old school feminism is incompatible with the new stuff.
oxide 11y ago
Actually, what you call "calling people out" is literally indistinguishable from bullying. You justify bullying another person with "bullshit" qualifiers from a imaginary moral high-ground while in reality being no better than the bullies you grew up with middle school.

stcredzero 11y ago

Calling people out on their bullshit isn't bullying. When the effect is merely to pressure, and not to convince, then in that particular context, people who may have been legitimately oppressed have (temporarily) become the oppressors. The difference between calling people out on their bullshit versus bullying is this: In "calling people out" -- people are shown their self-contradiction in such a way that they are given a chance to better live up to their moral system. It becomes bullying when people are only vilified, placed in an irredeemable category, then effectively punished in some way.

kaonashi 11y ago
> When the effect is merely to pressure, and not to convince, then in that particular context, people who may have been legitimately oppressed have (temporarily) become the oppressors. Putting pressure on someone to behave themselves isn't oppression. You can't possibly have gone through life without seeing actual oppression. > It becomes bullying when people are only vilified, placed in an irredeemable category, then effectively punished in some way. Nobody is irredeemable; but some people don't want redemption. When people refuse to behave themselves, they get shunned. This is a normal human defense mechanism.
- mring33621 11y ago
  You do realize that "behave themselves" is subjective?
  - kaonashi 11y ago
    Apparently when certain people exercise their subjectivity instead of remaining silent, it's bullying.
- oxide 11y ago
  >When people refuse to behave themselves, they get shunned. and who decides what behavior is acceptable? you? don't make me laugh. you, and those like you, are bullies. plain and simple. cut and dry. black and white. some might even call you "thought-bullies."
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > Putting pressure on someone to behave themselves isn't oppression. Oppression is usually viewed by oppressors as putting pressure on the oppressed to behave properly.
  - kaonashi 11y ago
    Right, so like using the police to criminalize a minority population. Or the real estate industry colluding to keep out a minority from living in a certain area. Or asking someone not to wear a demeaning shirt. All totally the same thing.
    - oxide 11y ago
      what you are condoning is not politely asking, as if that ever got anything accomplished in this world. polite requests can be politely ignored. you are condoning bullying. bullying is threatening and demeaning in a way a shirt can only hope to one day accomplish, for the record.
      - kaonashi 11y ago
        Threatened with what? Severe disappointment?
        stcredzero 11y ago
        Being excluded from a group is a pretty severe penalty, emotionally. Our instincts associate group membership with survival. Membership in groups can have significant impacts on the quality and status of contacts. If wearing a t-shirt once can make others feel uncomfortable and not included, and this situation is wrong, then it is also wrong to permanently or too severely sanction the t-shirt wearer. Such a situation should be discussed calmly and resolved.
- stcredzero 11y ago
  You can't possibly have gone through life without seeing actual oppression. I have, in actuality, been the subject of ethnic/racially based harassment, to the point where the police got involved. (The perpetrators were caught, but I was pressured by the police to not file charges.) I grew up in a part of the country where the family had to drive 45 miles to visit with friends who were also asian, but not the exact same ethnic group. Yes, I know a little about actual oppression. Yes, there were other weird group hazings I experienced in my youth. When people refuse to behave themselves, they get shunned. This is a normal human defense mechanism. The default human reaction is to label the different as the wrong and the other. The normal human defense mechanism, when not properly cultivated and educated, is precisely the psychological foundation of oppression. I know this first hand. Do you know why the Freedom of Speech is enshrined in the US Constitution? It's precisely because normal human defense mechanisms result in the outright oppression of those with different points of view. And it's precisely this sort of lack of self-awareness and self-examination that allows normal people to take on the role of oppressor.

tomjen3 11y ago

>The topic is about violence. Feminists aren't violent; in fact they're a reaction against gender-based violence. This is board with many nerds. It is fair to say that we have all been bullied to some degree. Bullying may not be violent to the degree that it physically hits people over the head, but it is far more violent than anything feminism complains about. And Doctor Matt Taylor was bullied for what clothing he choose to wear. By feminists.

kaonashi 11y ago
> Bullying may not be violent to the degree that it physically hits people over the head Then it isn't violence. Bullying implies violence. You're describing something else.
- breischl 11y ago
  >>Bullying implies violence. That is incorrect. Dictionary definition: "Persistent acts intended to make life unpleasant for another person." So if I followed you around HN for the rest of the week responding to all postings/comments with insults and browbeating, that would be completely non-violent but still bullying. https://www.wordnik.com/words/bullying https://www.wordnik.com/words/bullying
  - tangent128 11y ago
    Dictionary definitions inherently lag behind practical usage; I would have no problem classifying harassment as a non-physical class of violence. Especially given cases where it can be more damaging to a person than physical assaults against their meat.
  - kaonashi 11y ago
    I mean if we're going to use that definition, then the shirt itself was harassment. Or is it just if I'm oblivious to the harassment I cause & don't care to find out, then it's somehow morally superior to someone repeatedly and strenuously asking me to stop?

lsniddy 11y ago

> Yet, I strongly oppose feminism. I believe in equality, but not equality for one gender or skin color or sexual orientation. That means you're a feminist. I'm sorry you're not able to get your definitions straight. I disagree with that definition. I think that view means the parent poster is an educated, rational person. Are you sorry for me as well?

Lawtonfogle 11y ago

>That means you're a feminist. I'm sorry you're not able to get your definitions straight. Old school maybe. Old school feminism is incompatible with the new stuff.

oxide 11y ago

Actually, what you call "calling people out" is literally indistinguishable from bullying. You justify bullying another person with "bullshit" qualifiers from a imaginary moral high-ground while in reality being no better than the bullies you grew up with middle school.