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Now you're elevating a vocal subset of "feminists" to represent the entire group. There are plenty of old-school feminists, from when feminism was about equal r

Now you're elevating a vocal subset of "feminists" to represent the entire group. There are plenty of old-school feminists, from when feminism was about equal rights. They just don't create as much internet drama as the other kind, so you hear about them less.

fennecfoxen 11y ago
Ironic, too, because the worst part of $hypothetical_feminist_subgroup is that if you disagree with the policy prescription de jure (say, spending $3 trillion annually on pre-K education) then they will hit you back with an accusation that you are a terrible misogynist who doesn't acknowledge the fundamental dignity of women as human beings. Don't aid and abet this rhetorical crime.
- breischl 11y ago
  Nitpick: I think you actually meant to say "policy prescription du jour", meaning the current policy prescription. I normally would not nitpick that, but "de jure" has a different meaning, "According to law; by right", that would be applicable in this context.
belorn 11y ago
Its hard to disregard that subset here in Sweden when there a government that self-identify itself as feminist. Several years ago there was a initiative to create equality in education. Any student that was a minority in their class received a minor bonus as an incentive. The initiative was however deemed a failure when it was realized that the majority of student fulfilling the requirement was men and not women. Afterward it was sent to the courts which promptly declared the initiative as discriminative against students who weren't minorities. Now only a short time ago a new initiative was suggested by a government study, with the primary difference from the old one being that it will now only apply in studies where men are the majority. So excuse me for having a hard time finding those old-school feminists that talks about equal rights. The only time I saw one was in a opinion piece a year ago where equal rights was described as the "old" feminism movement, and I saw a lot of hatred directed at her rather than support in the comments.
- throwaway7767 11y ago
  > So excuse me for having a hard time finding those old-school feminists that talks about equal rights. The only time I saw one was in a opinion piece a year ago where equal rights was described as the "old" feminism movement, and I saw a lot of hatred directed at her rather than support in the comments. That was my point: the people most active in online discussions do not necessarily represent a majority view. They are simply the most vocal. Talk to people around you - family, friends and coworkers. Does a significant proportion of them share these beliefs? The people most likely to comment on matters like this in online discussions are people with extreme opinions on them. I cannot comment on the swedish initiative as I'm not familiar with it.
  - iofj 11y ago
    The issue is that different races and even different value systems are ... different. In more than skin color. The implication of that is that in any given pursuit, true equality will not create proportional representation. (And common sense tells you that fixing that with incentives is impossibly complex and therefore will never be achieved)
    - throwaway7767 11y ago
      Were you responding to anything in particular in my comment or is this just something you wanted to get off your chest?
billmalarky 11y ago
The extremist/radical subset aren't just overly "vocal" though. Their behavior causes real world negative consequences for a lot of people (women and men). That's pretty hard to just shrug off. Like it or not, they appear to be the face of the modern feminist movement. Radical islam has the same issue. Is radicalism the minority? Or course. But when the media (social or mainstream) continues to shove the radical message in people's face over and over... well you know.

fennecfoxen 11y ago

Ironic, too, because the worst part of $hypothetical_feminist_subgroup is that if you disagree with the policy prescription de jure (say, spending $3 trillion annually on pre-K education) then they will hit you back with an accusation that you are a terrible misogynist who doesn't acknowledge the fundamental dignity of women as human beings. Don't aid and abet this rhetorical crime.

breischl 11y ago
Nitpick: I think you actually meant to say "policy prescription du jour", meaning the current policy prescription. I normally would not nitpick that, but "de jure" has a different meaning, "According to law; by right", that would be applicable in this context.

belorn 11y ago

Its hard to disregard that subset here in Sweden when there a government that self-identify itself as feminist. Several years ago there was a initiative to create equality in education. Any student that was a minority in their class received a minor bonus as an incentive. The initiative was however deemed a failure when it was realized that the majority of student fulfilling the requirement was men and not women. Afterward it was sent to the courts which promptly declared the initiative as discriminative against students who weren't minorities. Now only a short time ago a new initiative was suggested by a government study, with the primary difference from the old one being that it will now only apply in studies where men are the majority. So excuse me for having a hard time finding those old-school feminists that talks about equal rights. The only time I saw one was in a opinion piece a year ago where equal rights was described as the "old" feminism movement, and I saw a lot of hatred directed at her rather than support in the comments.

throwaway7767 11y ago
> So excuse me for having a hard time finding those old-school feminists that talks about equal rights. The only time I saw one was in a opinion piece a year ago where equal rights was described as the "old" feminism movement, and I saw a lot of hatred directed at her rather than support in the comments. That was my point: the people most active in online discussions do not necessarily represent a majority view. They are simply the most vocal. Talk to people around you - family, friends and coworkers. Does a significant proportion of them share these beliefs? The people most likely to comment on matters like this in online discussions are people with extreme opinions on them. I cannot comment on the swedish initiative as I'm not familiar with it.
- iofj 11y ago
  The issue is that different races and even different value systems are ... different. In more than skin color. The implication of that is that in any given pursuit, true equality will not create proportional representation. (And common sense tells you that fixing that with incentives is impossibly complex and therefore will never be achieved)
  - throwaway7767 11y ago
    Were you responding to anything in particular in my comment or is this just something you wanted to get off your chest?

billmalarky 11y ago

The extremist/radical subset aren't just overly "vocal" though. Their behavior causes real world negative consequences for a lot of people (women and men). That's pretty hard to just shrug off. Like it or not, they appear to be the face of the modern feminist movement. Radical islam has the same issue. Is radicalism the minority? Or course. But when the media (social or mainstream) continues to shove the radical message in people's face over and over... well you know.