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> So given all that, it's tautological from Biblical > principles that violent people are not followers of > Christ. Then, given that all wars are inhe

> So given all that, it's tautological from Biblical > principles that violent people are not followers of > Christ. Then, given that all wars are inherently violent, is it your opinion that all wars are unjust? Would you also consider that every human life that is ended prematurely by another "murder" (capital punishment, war, abortion)?

humanrebar 11y ago
I have opinions, of course, but I aspire to have them grounded in scripture. However, you asked, so I'll try to share my take on violence and sin. Keep in mind that I'm not an expert theologian. I'm willing to be wrong on these points if someone can show me how I'm missing some detail or theme in the teaching of the Bible. Also, since the importance of sin is in the intention behind the thoughts and actions and not in the actions themselves, it's possible for both violent and nonviolent acts to be sinful (a). To start, most forms of violence are currently illegal, and Christians are supposed to submit to their government, even oppressive ones. There are quite a few references for this (b) (c). Finding more examples isn't difficult if you want more. So for violence to be OK, it has to be legal, at a minimum, which is a reasonably high bar in Western countries. In the Bible, it is made clear that governments are supposed to enforce justice, including with violence (d). It's not clear if "the sword" must extend all the way to capital punishment, but given the fact that capital punishment was prescribed in the Mosaic Law, it seems to be in the picture in some contexts. That being said, I think people can argue in good faith that modern Western countries are civilized and rich enough to afford every possible chance at rehabilitation. But to insist that capital punishment is necessarily murder is ethnocentric at best and possibly false teaching if someone claims to speak for God. As far as war, it's clearly not sinful in itself (e). Neither is being a soldier or general. Many (most?) of the judges in Judges were involved in battle in one way or another. As were Abraham and Moses. As was King David (he killed Goliath, remember?). But can countries sin by prosecuting unjust wars? Certainly. Can soldiers sin in their behavior on the battle field? I'm sure it's difficult not to. Ultimately in any behavior, violent or not, God promises rewards and punishments will be fair at the end of the day (f). Christians are supposed to live without sin, with truth, and in love. Of course they have failed and continue to fail in this. But God promises to make everything right, with his blood if necessary. And according to the Bible, it was necessary, because Jesus came to save the world, not condemn it (g). Is abortion murder? It's a sin in the cases that it's motivated by self-interest, callousness, or even fear. For a Christian that should be reason enough not to do it. What would the point be in calling it murder? To damn people? We don't have to reach far to find that we are all flawed (h). Lust, lying, hate, despising people, neglecting charity, being unforgiving, envy, greed, addiction, gossiping, cheating, consumerism, coveting... everyone does these things already. There's not much point in trying to rub peoples' noses in how they don't follow God's commandments. They either already know they're not following God or don't care (which is basically the same thing). (a) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+14 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+14 (b) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13 (c) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+2%3A13-25&version=ESV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+2%3A13-... (d) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13%3A4&version=ESV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13%3A4&v... (e) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+3%3A1-8&version=ESV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+3%... (f) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=collosians+3%3A23-25&version=ESV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=collosians+3%3A... (g) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+3%3A17&version=ESV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+3%3A17&ver... (h) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:21-30 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:21-...
- ordinary 11y ago
  First of all, thank you for your contributions to this thread. They've been very interesting. I noticed a couple of points in this post that I would like some clarification on, if you have the time and inclination. Christians are supposed to submit to their government, even oppressive ones. There are quite a few references for this (b) (c). Finding more examples isn't difficult if you want more. Where does this sentiment come from, considering that Christianity was illegal in the Roman empire at the time? To an extent, I can understand requiring submission to persecution for reasons unrelated to the faith, but it seems strange to me that early Christians would be required to submit to a government that is persecuting those that attempt to obey God, for attempting to obey God. They either already know they're not following God or don't care (which is basically the same thing). Is it really impossible to be 'good' if you don't follow God, according to scripture? Is an atheist sinful by definition?
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - gjm11 11y ago
    > Is an atheist sinful by definition? In typical Christian theology, everyone is sinful -- "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves", etc. As to whether not being Christian is itself a variety of sin, or makes you especially bad, or guarantees damnation rather than salvation, the tradition (even the particularly important subset of it called the Bible) is not perfectly consistent. A few examples: For": the "Letter to the Hebrews" says something like "Without believing in God it is impossible to please him". Against: one of St Paul's letters speculates that pagans' consciences will "accuse or perhaps excuse" them when they are judged. For: There's a rather nasty idea embedded in the Christian tradition, that deep down everyone knows* that God is real and is the way Christians say he is, and therefore people who aren't Christians are being dishonest with themselves. The main source for this in the Bible is early in the "Letter to the Romans" where St Paul says something along these lines: "God's anger is being revealed against people who wickedly suppress the truth. For since the creation of the world God's existence and nature have been apparent just from looking at what he made, but some people deny it." He goes on to link this with gay sex, weirdly enough. Anyway, I think most Christians have the decency not to assume that everyone who doesn't share their religion is a liar, and most of the rest have at least enough decency not to say it out loud, but the point is that if you think that everyone really knows that Christianity (or at least something like it) is right then it becomes more reasonable to think that those who reject it are doing so out of wickedness. (But unless my memory is deceiving me, which it might be, the Pauline letter speculating about pagans' consciences excusing them is in fact the same one as the one that says pagans are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. Make of that what you will.) Disclaimer 1: I'm not a Christian, but I'm pretty familiar with this stuff. Disclaimer 2: Christians do not all agree about any of this, and in particular some will disagree with any given bit of the above. (Probably quite a lot will disagree either with my characterization of the thinking in Romans 1 as a "rather nasty idea" or with the idea that it's "embedded in the Christian tradition".)

humanrebar 11y ago

I have opinions, of course, but I aspire to have them grounded in scripture. However, you asked, so I'll try to share my take on violence and sin. Keep in mind that I'm not an expert theologian. I'm willing to be wrong on these points if someone can show me how I'm missing some detail or theme in the teaching of the Bible. Also, since the importance of sin is in the intention behind the thoughts and actions and not in the actions themselves, it's possible for both violent and nonviolent acts to be sinful (a). To start, most forms of violence are currently illegal, and Christians are supposed to submit to their government, even oppressive ones. There are quite a few references for this (b) (c). Finding more examples isn't difficult if you want more. So for violence to be OK, it has to be legal, at a minimum, which is a reasonably high bar in Western countries. In the Bible, it is made clear that governments are supposed to enforce justice, including with violence (d). It's not clear if "the sword" must extend all the way to capital punishment, but given the fact that capital punishment was prescribed in the Mosaic Law, it seems to be in the picture in some contexts. That being said, I think people can argue in good faith that modern Western countries are civilized and rich enough to afford every possible chance at rehabilitation. But to insist that capital punishment is necessarily murder is ethnocentric at best and possibly false teaching if someone claims to speak for God. As far as war, it's clearly not sinful in itself (e). Neither is being a soldier or general. Many (most?) of the judges in Judges were involved in battle in one way or another. As were Abraham and Moses. As was King David (he killed Goliath, remember?). But can countries sin by prosecuting unjust wars? Certainly. Can soldiers sin in their behavior on the battle field? I'm sure it's difficult not to. Ultimately in any behavior, violent or not, God promises rewards and punishments will be fair at the end of the day (f). Christians are supposed to live without sin, with truth, and in love. Of course they have failed and continue to fail in this. But God promises to make everything right, with his blood if necessary. And according to the Bible, it was necessary, because Jesus came to save the world, not condemn it (g). Is abortion murder? It's a sin in the cases that it's motivated by self-interest, callousness, or even fear. For a Christian that should be reason enough not to do it. What would the point be in calling it murder? To damn people? We don't have to reach far to find that we are all flawed (h). Lust, lying, hate, despising people, neglecting charity, being unforgiving, envy, greed, addiction, gossiping, cheating, consumerism, coveting... everyone does these things already. There's not much point in trying to rub peoples' noses in how they don't follow God's commandments. They either already know they're not following God or don't care (which is basically the same thing). (a) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+14 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+14 (b) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13 (c) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+2%3A13-25&version=ESV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+2%3A13-... (d) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13%3A4&version=ESV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13%3A4&v... (e) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+3%3A1-8&version=ESV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+3%... (f) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=collosians+3%3A23-25&version=ESV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=collosians+3%3A... (g) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+3%3A17&version=ESV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+3%3A17&ver... (h) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:21-30 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:21-...

ordinary 11y ago
First of all, thank you for your contributions to this thread. They've been very interesting. I noticed a couple of points in this post that I would like some clarification on, if you have the time and inclination. Christians are supposed to submit to their government, even oppressive ones. There are quite a few references for this (b) (c). Finding more examples isn't difficult if you want more. Where does this sentiment come from, considering that Christianity was illegal in the Roman empire at the time? To an extent, I can understand requiring submission to persecution for reasons unrelated to the faith, but it seems strange to me that early Christians would be required to submit to a government that is persecuting those that attempt to obey God, for attempting to obey God. They either already know they're not following God or don't care (which is basically the same thing). Is it really impossible to be 'good' if you don't follow God, according to scripture? Is an atheist sinful by definition?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- gjm11 11y ago
  > Is an atheist sinful by definition? In typical Christian theology, everyone is sinful -- "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves", etc. As to whether not being Christian is itself a variety of sin, or makes you especially bad, or guarantees damnation rather than salvation, the tradition (even the particularly important subset of it called the Bible) is not perfectly consistent. A few examples: For": the "Letter to the Hebrews" says something like "Without believing in God it is impossible to please him". Against: one of St Paul's letters speculates that pagans' consciences will "accuse or perhaps excuse" them when they are judged. For: There's a rather nasty idea embedded in the Christian tradition, that deep down everyone knows* that God is real and is the way Christians say he is, and therefore people who aren't Christians are being dishonest with themselves. The main source for this in the Bible is early in the "Letter to the Romans" where St Paul says something along these lines: "God's anger is being revealed against people who wickedly suppress the truth. For since the creation of the world God's existence and nature have been apparent just from looking at what he made, but some people deny it." He goes on to link this with gay sex, weirdly enough. Anyway, I think most Christians have the decency not to assume that everyone who doesn't share their religion is a liar, and most of the rest have at least enough decency not to say it out loud, but the point is that if you think that everyone really knows that Christianity (or at least something like it) is right then it becomes more reasonable to think that those who reject it are doing so out of wickedness. (But unless my memory is deceiving me, which it might be, the Pauline letter speculating about pagans' consciences excusing them is in fact the same one as the one that says pagans are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. Make of that what you will.) Disclaimer 1: I'm not a Christian, but I'm pretty familiar with this stuff. Disclaimer 2: Christians do not all agree about any of this, and in particular some will disagree with any given bit of the above. (Probably quite a lot will disagree either with my characterization of the thinking in Romans 1 as a "rather nasty idea" or with the idea that it's "embedded in the Christian tradition".)