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We have plenty of gun laws and methods of checking criminal history already; additional restrictions and laws don't change the fact that criminals are willing t

by fein 11y ago

We have plenty of gun laws and methods of checking criminal history already; additional restrictions and laws don't change the fact that criminals are willing to be criminals. Unless you just want to take guns away from all civilians forever, and in that case I don't think we can have an actual rational dialogue. edit: I don't mean "you" specifically, I mean the general "you". I can see how that could read wrong.

satori99 11y ago
> Unless you just want to take guns away from all civilians forever, and in that case I don't think we can have an actual rational dialogue. Can I ask why not? I mean, why is it irrational to suggest that civilians not be allowed to own powerful weapons designed to kill humans?
- aianus 11y ago
  > I mean, why is it irrational to suggest that civilians not be allowed to own powerful weapons designed to kill humans? Because criminals don't care about laws and then they would become the only ones with guns. A law abiding citizen should be allowed the necessary means to protect himself, his family, and his possessions. Besides that, they're not necessarily designed to kill humans; plenty of people need guns to defend against animals (like anyone working in bear country, farmers protecting chickens against coyotes, etc.)
  - satori99 11y ago
    I don't really buy the "criminals have them, so I need one too" argument. Are you genuinely so in fear for your family's' safety, that you need a firearm and ammunition on hand? If that is the case, and I were in your position,I would seriously consider moving elsewhere before I armed myself. I live in a country where they were banned some time ago for all civilians who don't have a very good reason for owning one. ("Because I like them", or "I need to protect my property/family" are not considered good reasons). Many farmers and rural types were very angry about the ban when it was proposed and implemented. But now, the vast majority of the population considers it to be the crowning achievement of the politician who implemented it. Guns and gun crime are now so rare in my city that almost every time a gun is used to commit a crime it is front page news.
    - fein 11y ago
      > Guns and gun crime are now so rare in my city that almost every time a gun is used to commit a crime it is front page news. And yet it still happens. Additionally, you're from AU; You have a very different culture and level of poverty that you really don't see in the US. We (the US) have issues with income disparity unseen in a first world country, and the majority of the gun crimes occur in that area (poor urban areas). Poverty is a huge driver for crime. Fix that problem and gun crimes plummet. Are you aware that knife crimes are up some 10+% in AU versus gun crimes? It seems that the criminals are still willing to be criminals. Take a look at Vermont for example. Pretty boring if you want to live in an urban area, but probably the safest state in the US with the most relaxed gun laws. Vermont allows concealed carry without a permit; what we call "constitutional carry".
      - satori99 11y ago
        It's true that our respective societies are very different (despite their similarities). We do not really have a small-town society in Australia. Almost all Australians live in large cities, and metro areas. This urban mindset is definitely reflected in our policies and laws. It is worth noting however, that Sydney (where I live), is larger than every city in the US, except New York. And yet I am vastly (something like 400x) less likely to be the victim of any gun related crime than a US city dweller.
        cgriswald 11y ago
        That's the trick, isn't it? By referring to "gun crime" it looks like, magically, crime has disappeared along with the guns. But it isn't relevant whether a victim of a mugging is faced with a gun or a knife, so it's not "gun crime" that's interesting, but "crime". In countries that have banned guns, including Australia, the restriction on guns has done nothing to reduce crime. In every single country that has banned them (again including Australia) there was an initial uptick of crime. The UK in particular had a massive increase in homocides (the number one reason people give as to why guns should be banned) and also saw home invasions where the victims were physically at home at the time of the invasion increase. Australia was lucky in that after its uptick, crime returned to normal rates. In many other countries, crime has continued to trend upward.
- fein 11y ago
  I shoot as a hobby (steel and paper), and have a loaded gun on me at all times at home (on the bedstand when sleeping) for self defense. Removing that not only kills a hobby that I love, but also places me at a mortal disadvantage if the situation arises. I'm actually for non violent felons being allowed to still have a right to self defense. If we had a program that could actually rehabilitate violent felons (the prison system DOES NOT do this), I'd be all for those people to be allowed the right to defend themselves as well. The people that are interested in causing you harm for their own gain really don't care how they do it; at this point in time the best equalizer for all is a firearm. The angle on a tyrannical government, and keeping that problem in check, is a whole different discussion and probably isn't suited for this forum.
  - Asbostos 11y ago
    Most victims of guns aren't attackers that were shot in self defense. Are you saying it's better that large number of innocent people get killed than a minority of self-defending people? That doesn't sound like a safe solution overall - it only benefits the people who take more action to defend themselves and hurts everyone else. Question too - how do you use a gun to defend yourself against somebody else with a gun? Doesn't it come down to who can "draw" quicker - which will surely always be the attacker because he's the only one who knows what's about to happen? Or are you only talking about defending yourself against people without guns who who might use them impulsively so they don't have the advantage of surprise?
    - fein 11y ago
      Most victims of guns are in gang related skirmishes in poverty centers.
    - gnopgnip 11y ago
      Most people killed by guns are victims of suicide. America has a mental health problem. If you want to prevent deaths from guns fix the mental health problems first. If you want to stop people from dying focus on the number preventable cause of death, heart disease.
- oldmanjay 11y ago
  Bear in mind that technology will soon let people create arms in the privacy of their own home. Then it has to be the idea that gets banned, so good luck.
  - Gracana 11y ago
    The technology to make firearms at home has existed for a hundred years.
    - oldmanjay 11y ago
      "without special skill," I should have not left unsaid.
robbiemitchell 11y ago
Not sure what "we" and "plenty of" mean. This is regulated state by state. And the number of laws (?) is irrelevant if they are ineffective. Ohio, for instance, has gun shows that advertise on TV and facilitate casual gun sales. Not even a Walmart, just a booth at a convention center. * Some states have permissive gun regulation. * There is no consistent, nationwide background check system. * There is a large field of options between where we are and "take guns away from all civilians forever". We already prevent the sale of grenades. We prevent the sale of gas. Doing so makes it harder for criminals to be criminals in particular ways. We can similarly restrict the sale of certain kinds of weapons to make it harder for criminals to be criminals, just as some of our other rights are restricted outright or through case law (including free speech, freedom to assemble, and others).
- fein 11y ago
  I'm a native born and so far lifelong resident of Ohio; and I wouldn't have our gun laws any other way (constitutional carry would be nice) I think something like 1% of gun crimes are committed from firearms purchased from a gun show. > We already prevent the sale of grenades. We prevent the sale of gas. Explosives are pretty easy to make. How many pipe bombs were found with the San Bernadino shooters? And this is California in that example, possibly the most restricted state in the US regarding firearms. Tannerite is legal for purchase in Ohio and California, for example. All you need is a blasting cap to set it off (or shoot it with a gun, which is one hell of a fun afternoon)

by fein 11y ago

satori99 11y ago

> Unless you just want to take guns away from all civilians forever, and in that case I don't think we can have an actual rational dialogue. Can I ask why not? I mean, why is it irrational to suggest that civilians not be allowed to own powerful weapons designed to kill humans?

aianus 11y ago
> I mean, why is it irrational to suggest that civilians not be allowed to own powerful weapons designed to kill humans? Because criminals don't care about laws and then they would become the only ones with guns. A law abiding citizen should be allowed the necessary means to protect himself, his family, and his possessions. Besides that, they're not necessarily designed to kill humans; plenty of people need guns to defend against animals (like anyone working in bear country, farmers protecting chickens against coyotes, etc.)
- satori99 11y ago
  I don't really buy the "criminals have them, so I need one too" argument. Are you genuinely so in fear for your family's' safety, that you need a firearm and ammunition on hand? If that is the case, and I were in your position,I would seriously consider moving elsewhere before I armed myself. I live in a country where they were banned some time ago for all civilians who don't have a very good reason for owning one. ("Because I like them", or "I need to protect my property/family" are not considered good reasons). Many farmers and rural types were very angry about the ban when it was proposed and implemented. But now, the vast majority of the population considers it to be the crowning achievement of the politician who implemented it. Guns and gun crime are now so rare in my city that almost every time a gun is used to commit a crime it is front page news.
  - fein 11y ago
    > Guns and gun crime are now so rare in my city that almost every time a gun is used to commit a crime it is front page news. And yet it still happens. Additionally, you're from AU; You have a very different culture and level of poverty that you really don't see in the US. We (the US) have issues with income disparity unseen in a first world country, and the majority of the gun crimes occur in that area (poor urban areas). Poverty is a huge driver for crime. Fix that problem and gun crimes plummet. Are you aware that knife crimes are up some 10+% in AU versus gun crimes? It seems that the criminals are still willing to be criminals. Take a look at Vermont for example. Pretty boring if you want to live in an urban area, but probably the safest state in the US with the most relaxed gun laws. Vermont allows concealed carry without a permit; what we call "constitutional carry".
    - satori99 11y ago
      It's true that our respective societies are very different (despite their similarities). We do not really have a small-town society in Australia. Almost all Australians live in large cities, and metro areas. This urban mindset is definitely reflected in our policies and laws. It is worth noting however, that Sydney (where I live), is larger than every city in the US, except New York. And yet I am vastly (something like 400x) less likely to be the victim of any gun related crime than a US city dweller.
      - cgriswald 11y ago
        That's the trick, isn't it? By referring to "gun crime" it looks like, magically, crime has disappeared along with the guns. But it isn't relevant whether a victim of a mugging is faced with a gun or a knife, so it's not "gun crime" that's interesting, but "crime". In countries that have banned guns, including Australia, the restriction on guns has done nothing to reduce crime. In every single country that has banned them (again including Australia) there was an initial uptick of crime. The UK in particular had a massive increase in homocides (the number one reason people give as to why guns should be banned) and also saw home invasions where the victims were physically at home at the time of the invasion increase. Australia was lucky in that after its uptick, crime returned to normal rates. In many other countries, crime has continued to trend upward.
fein 11y ago
I shoot as a hobby (steel and paper), and have a loaded gun on me at all times at home (on the bedstand when sleeping) for self defense. Removing that not only kills a hobby that I love, but also places me at a mortal disadvantage if the situation arises. I'm actually for non violent felons being allowed to still have a right to self defense. If we had a program that could actually rehabilitate violent felons (the prison system DOES NOT do this), I'd be all for those people to be allowed the right to defend themselves as well. The people that are interested in causing you harm for their own gain really don't care how they do it; at this point in time the best equalizer for all is a firearm. The angle on a tyrannical government, and keeping that problem in check, is a whole different discussion and probably isn't suited for this forum.
- Asbostos 11y ago
  Most victims of guns aren't attackers that were shot in self defense. Are you saying it's better that large number of innocent people get killed than a minority of self-defending people? That doesn't sound like a safe solution overall - it only benefits the people who take more action to defend themselves and hurts everyone else. Question too - how do you use a gun to defend yourself against somebody else with a gun? Doesn't it come down to who can "draw" quicker - which will surely always be the attacker because he's the only one who knows what's about to happen? Or are you only talking about defending yourself against people without guns who who might use them impulsively so they don't have the advantage of surprise?
  - fein 11y ago
    Most victims of guns are in gang related skirmishes in poverty centers.
  - gnopgnip 11y ago
    Most people killed by guns are victims of suicide. America has a mental health problem. If you want to prevent deaths from guns fix the mental health problems first. If you want to stop people from dying focus on the number preventable cause of death, heart disease.
oldmanjay 11y ago
Bear in mind that technology will soon let people create arms in the privacy of their own home. Then it has to be the idea that gets banned, so good luck.
- Gracana 11y ago
  The technology to make firearms at home has existed for a hundred years.
  - oldmanjay 11y ago
    "without special skill," I should have not left unsaid.

robbiemitchell 11y ago

Not sure what "we" and "plenty of" mean. This is regulated state by state. And the number of laws (?) is irrelevant if they are ineffective. Ohio, for instance, has gun shows that advertise on TV and facilitate casual gun sales. Not even a Walmart, just a booth at a convention center. * Some states have permissive gun regulation. * There is no consistent, nationwide background check system. * There is a large field of options between where we are and "take guns away from all civilians forever". We already prevent the sale of grenades. We prevent the sale of gas. Doing so makes it harder for criminals to be criminals in particular ways. We can similarly restrict the sale of certain kinds of weapons to make it harder for criminals to be criminals, just as some of our other rights are restricted outright or through case law (including free speech, freedom to assemble, and others).

fein 11y ago
I'm a native born and so far lifelong resident of Ohio; and I wouldn't have our gun laws any other way (constitutional carry would be nice) I think something like 1% of gun crimes are committed from firearms purchased from a gun show. > We already prevent the sale of grenades. We prevent the sale of gas. Explosives are pretty easy to make. How many pipe bombs were found with the San Bernadino shooters? And this is California in that example, possibly the most restricted state in the US regarding firearms. Tannerite is legal for purchase in Ohio and California, for example. All you need is a blasting cap to set it off (or shoot it with a gun, which is one hell of a fun afternoon)