5 ms·

So I'll just say it. I'm switching to FreeBSD. I'm sick of this train wreck. I don't care what they are developing I'm just sick of how they are doing it. I don

So I'll just say it. I'm switching to FreeBSD. I'm sick of this train wreck. I don't care what they are developing I'm just sick of how they are doing it. I don't want my operating system to have this sort of mid life crisis.

thescribe 11y ago
I've kind of been thinking the same thing, this feels like a takeover by the freedesktop people.
- chris_wot 11y ago
  And yet it's not an official announcement, hasn't been discussed on any systemd related mailing lists, has no documentation and merely exists as a git repository. It's almost as if the programmers were experimenting with ideas that are alternatives to kdbus. I'm appalled. What were they thinking?
  - thescribe 11y ago
    You're very right. I let my distrust for freedeskop color my reaction.
    - chris_wot 11y ago
      That's ok. I was too sarcastic in that reply, sorry if I caused offence (I strive to modify my tendencies towards catty comments, but I'm a work in progress - When I see I've done it I'm making it a policy to acknowledge it and apologise). Could I ask a genuine question? Aside from systemd, why do you distrust freedesktop?
- gnu8 11y ago
  I agree with that is more or less what it is, but I'm not sure if I have a problem with it since it delivers the features people expect from a desktop OS. If you stop and think about the UNIX model, it really does not deliver everything that a desktop OS needs. At the same time, there is plenty of room for traditional sysv or bsd style Linux distributions, particularly in the cloud/container space. It boggles the mind that Ubuntu is the most popular distribution in that area, considering how many of its features are utterly unused and unnecessary on a container.
viraptor 11y ago
Why as a response to this? As far as I can understand they're actually finally addressing some things that people have complained about. kdbus is removed from rawhide, bus1 is not under systemd umbrella as far as I can tell, it's not just a move of existing huge spec into kernelspace, and as the article says "BUS1 is being designed to be a low-level IPC technology that will also provide a high-level interface for applications." Linux could definitely use some real, simple bus interface, so why would this be bad? (assuming it won't be merged into systemd in the future)
- wtallis 11y ago
  > "Linux could definitely use some real, simple bus interface, so why would this be bad? (assuming it won't be merged into systemd in the future)" Where's the evidence of demand for this from outside the systemd bubble, and why are all of the other existing IPC mechanisms (including those in other operating systems that could be implemented for Linux) unsuitable? The systemd devs really shouldn't be taken solely at their word that doing their favorite thing in another corner of the OS is the best decision for the broader community.
  - viraptor 11y ago
    Every big system uses some kind of bus. There's a whole list of buses / rpcs used on Linux and other systems many of which get heavy and tedious at some point. Actual clean low-level bus + high level app layer could be a good solution for a change. sunrpc, dcom, corba, dbus, xpcom, dci, dcop, rmi, kqueue (kind of), 9p/plumber, ... All of them try to achieve a similar thing. Some of them can be actually used for remote calls, but a lot are used for local rpc. They're unsuitable for the same reasons that we're using json instead of asn1, and http instead of custom interactive protocols. It's not that they don't work anymore, but because we learned how to do things better. And if bus1, or something similar could provide a low-level, common basis for more generic technologies, that would be awesome. Regarding reuse... I don't know if any current system can provide what systemd guys want (pre-init availability and sending uid assurance)
    - 11y ago
morganvachon 11y ago
Not that I disagree with your sentiment, but why FreeBSD? Out of all the BSDs, they are the most likely to adopt a systemd-like environment[1]. Why not Slackware or Gentoo if you want to stay on Linux without systemd, or else DragonflyBSD or OpenBSD? I'm not criticizing btw, just asking out of curiosity. [1] http://www.golem.de/news/systemd-und-launchd-freebsd-gruender-sieht-notwendigkeit-fuer-modernes-init-system-1411-110809.html http://www.golem.de/news/systemd-und-launchd-freebsd-gruende...
- badsock 11y ago
  Switching between the BSDs is very easy, and FreeBSD has the most resources for beginners. In any case, I don't think Hubbard's going to get much traction with his plans. And the Gentoo devs are big fans of systemd, so while technically you can use it without, given how many tendrils systemd has got into things I think the amount of work it'll be to maintain the USE="-systemd" flag is going to mean it's a second-class citizen. Slackware will keep chugging along, though, as always.
  - morganvachon 11y ago
    Maybe I'm just wired differently, but I have found OpenBSD to be the easiest to latch on to by far. It has the simplest installer and sanest defaults (again in my own opinion) of all the BSDs, and it's the most similar to Slackware that I've found as well. Its only downsides for me have been hardware compatibility and speed/responsiveness as a desktop OS. > Slackware will keep chugging along, though, as always. Indeed, they were more or less silent on the whole systemd issue for a while but Eric Hameleers recently mentioned dropping udev in favor of Gentoo's eudev specifically because of what he calls "standards-violating systemd crap"[1] in udev, which means Slackware will be a safe haven for at least the next major version or so. [1] http://alien.slackbook.org/blog/slackware-live-edition/ http://alien.slackbook.org/blog/slackware-live-edition/
    - badsock 11y ago
      I'm definitely not saying anything against OpenBSD. It's an awesome project and definitely has an edge in a bunch of areas. I think it's really down to whether the people driving the project are your kind of people. That's what pushed me away from using Linux after using it 14 years, and what made FreeBSD so great to arrive at. People making similar decisions to what I would make in the same scenario - it makes using the OS like putting on a well-fitting glove (after a few initial bumps as you sort out which Linuxism don't work well on BSD, of course).
badsock 11y ago
I did about a year ago. It's been wonderful.

thescribe 11y ago

I've kind of been thinking the same thing, this feels like a takeover by the freedesktop people.

chris_wot 11y ago
And yet it's not an official announcement, hasn't been discussed on any systemd related mailing lists, has no documentation and merely exists as a git repository. It's almost as if the programmers were experimenting with ideas that are alternatives to kdbus. I'm appalled. What were they thinking?
- thescribe 11y ago
  You're very right. I let my distrust for freedeskop color my reaction.
  - chris_wot 11y ago
    That's ok. I was too sarcastic in that reply, sorry if I caused offence (I strive to modify my tendencies towards catty comments, but I'm a work in progress - When I see I've done it I'm making it a policy to acknowledge it and apologise). Could I ask a genuine question? Aside from systemd, why do you distrust freedesktop?
gnu8 11y ago
I agree with that is more or less what it is, but I'm not sure if I have a problem with it since it delivers the features people expect from a desktop OS. If you stop and think about the UNIX model, it really does not deliver everything that a desktop OS needs. At the same time, there is plenty of room for traditional sysv or bsd style Linux distributions, particularly in the cloud/container space. It boggles the mind that Ubuntu is the most popular distribution in that area, considering how many of its features are utterly unused and unnecessary on a container.

viraptor 11y ago

Why as a response to this? As far as I can understand they're actually finally addressing some things that people have complained about. kdbus is removed from rawhide, bus1 is not under systemd umbrella as far as I can tell, it's not just a move of existing huge spec into kernelspace, and as the article says "BUS1 is being designed to be a low-level IPC technology that will also provide a high-level interface for applications." Linux could definitely use some real, simple bus interface, so why would this be bad? (assuming it won't be merged into systemd in the future)

wtallis 11y ago
> "Linux could definitely use some real, simple bus interface, so why would this be bad? (assuming it won't be merged into systemd in the future)" Where's the evidence of demand for this from outside the systemd bubble, and why are all of the other existing IPC mechanisms (including those in other operating systems that could be implemented for Linux) unsuitable? The systemd devs really shouldn't be taken solely at their word that doing their favorite thing in another corner of the OS is the best decision for the broader community.
- viraptor 11y ago
  Every big system uses some kind of bus. There's a whole list of buses / rpcs used on Linux and other systems many of which get heavy and tedious at some point. Actual clean low-level bus + high level app layer could be a good solution for a change. sunrpc, dcom, corba, dbus, xpcom, dci, dcop, rmi, kqueue (kind of), 9p/plumber, ... All of them try to achieve a similar thing. Some of them can be actually used for remote calls, but a lot are used for local rpc. They're unsuitable for the same reasons that we're using json instead of asn1, and http instead of custom interactive protocols. It's not that they don't work anymore, but because we learned how to do things better. And if bus1, or something similar could provide a low-level, common basis for more generic technologies, that would be awesome. Regarding reuse... I don't know if any current system can provide what systemd guys want (pre-init availability and sending uid assurance)
  - 11y ago

morganvachon 11y ago

Not that I disagree with your sentiment, but why FreeBSD? Out of all the BSDs, they are the most likely to adopt a systemd-like environment[1]. Why not Slackware or Gentoo if you want to stay on Linux without systemd, or else DragonflyBSD or OpenBSD? I'm not criticizing btw, just asking out of curiosity. [1] http://www.golem.de/news/systemd-und-launchd-freebsd-gruender-sieht-notwendigkeit-fuer-modernes-init-system-1411-110809.html http://www.golem.de/news/systemd-und-launchd-freebsd-gruende...

badsock 11y ago
Switching between the BSDs is very easy, and FreeBSD has the most resources for beginners. In any case, I don't think Hubbard's going to get much traction with his plans. And the Gentoo devs are big fans of systemd, so while technically you can use it without, given how many tendrils systemd has got into things I think the amount of work it'll be to maintain the USE="-systemd" flag is going to mean it's a second-class citizen. Slackware will keep chugging along, though, as always.
- morganvachon 11y ago
  Maybe I'm just wired differently, but I have found OpenBSD to be the easiest to latch on to by far. It has the simplest installer and sanest defaults (again in my own opinion) of all the BSDs, and it's the most similar to Slackware that I've found as well. Its only downsides for me have been hardware compatibility and speed/responsiveness as a desktop OS. > Slackware will keep chugging along, though, as always. Indeed, they were more or less silent on the whole systemd issue for a while but Eric Hameleers recently mentioned dropping udev in favor of Gentoo's eudev specifically because of what he calls "standards-violating systemd crap"[1] in udev, which means Slackware will be a safe haven for at least the next major version or so. [1] http://alien.slackbook.org/blog/slackware-live-edition/ http://alien.slackbook.org/blog/slackware-live-edition/
  - badsock 11y ago
    I'm definitely not saying anything against OpenBSD. It's an awesome project and definitely has an edge in a bunch of areas. I think it's really down to whether the people driving the project are your kind of people. That's what pushed me away from using Linux after using it 14 years, and what made FreeBSD so great to arrive at. People making similar decisions to what I would make in the same scenario - it makes using the OS like putting on a well-fitting glove (after a few initial bumps as you sort out which Linuxism don't work well on BSD, of course).

badsock 11y ago

I did about a year ago. It's been wonderful.