6 ms·

From my Western European point of view, I see a lot of these intellectual jobs being outsourced to Slovenia, Poland and even the Philippines. I am advising my

by Luc 11y ago

From my Western European point of view, I see a lot of these intellectual jobs being outsourced to Slovenia, Poland and even the Philippines. I am advising my kids to have good technical skills but also great people skills.

hvidgaard 11y ago
Outsourcing has its uses, but the majority of programming jobs cannot be oursourced, and with time it will become even less profitable to do. However, programming any major system today does require extensive knowledge and I dare say a CS degree as well. It's becoming more and more like an engineering discipline, and as such I think we're going to see a shift towards programming being something you need a college degree to perform.
- mattmanser 11y ago
  Programming a major system has absolutely no need of a CS degree. I know and have worked with programmers with and without a CS degree (I'm one of the ones without). As far as I can tell it's no indicator of programmer skill at all.
  - wernercd 11y ago
    The issue is the "maturity" of programming as a complete field. Not only is it a "young" (decades old vs say construction) but it's changing dramatically year over year - whats asked for today is different that 5 years ago... what's acceptable 10 years ago is a deathtrap today. With that being said, how can colleges REALLY train? I got trained at my local community college a few years back (2008-2010) in VB and Cobol. How fast can most places REALLY respond to a moving target like this? Also, a degree is no indication of programming skill... but neither is having a job. You can churn out code, hopping from one place to another, and still be a shitty programmer. That's one of the biggest issues... How can you REALLY tell what someone is going to produce? There are no consistent certification processes and no consistent measure of what makes a good programmer.
  - CrLf 11y ago
    Just like building a skyscraper doesn't require a degree. You don't need a degree to lay bricks, pour cement or assemble rebar. But you do if you're the one designing the structure in the first place. There is a lot of knowledge to be gained by experience, but sometimes it's useful to have knowledge gained from books, and in particular from books you had no interest reading in the first place (which is the real value of a degree: forcing you to go through a process that includes stuff you like and stuff you dislike).
    - teacup50 11y ago
      Books are not the sole property of colleges.
      - CrLf 11y ago
        But goals for students with paths including a variety of subjects both obviously useful and apparently useless seems to be (in practice). I occasionally come across situations where those useless subjects suddenly contribute something useful for the problem at hand. I would never have studied them by myself unless forced by the goal of finishing college. At the very least, I would have never studied them to any sufficient depth to make them useful.
        hvidgaard 11y ago
        It's really not obvious when you're studying. I often use knowledge that seemed useless at my time at university, but it has surprisingly come in handy every now and then.
    - mattmanser 11y ago
      Amazingly, I can design programs too (you arrogant prick). Comparing yourself to an architect and me to a bricklayer. Sorry, is mee too dumb-dumb to read bookie wookie?
      - hvidgaard 11y ago
        It's not about being dumb. You're taking it personal when no offence is meant. Understanding the difference cache hierarchies, or how you reach consensus in a system without a central authority, or to what degree various normal forms of data affect you, or being able to design a sound and complete DSL, or a lot of other things. That is what you get from a proper CS degree. Does that mean that you cannot program of design programs? No, but there are people out there with more education better suited to design, say, a large scale medical system where certain guarantees must be given.
noarchy 11y ago
North American (Canada to be exact) here. I'm seeing jobs being outsourced by some of our local shops to places like Armenia and Romania. You can hire very competent developers on the cheap (relative to North America, at least). I expect more of this in the future.
adrianN 11y ago
So? It's not like the people in Slovenia, Poland, or the Philippines are less intelligent or less well educated than people from Western Europe.
- Luc 11y ago
  So? So my kids don't live in a low wage country and will need to differentiate themselves to keep making the big bucks.
- Crito 11y ago
  They are just as smart, but due to the nature of their economies, they can out compete on cost.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
_nedR 11y ago
You advised your kids well, but if this study is to believed, intellectual (including programming jobs) are here to stay for a bit longer : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34066941 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34066941
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
ajuc 11y ago
As a developer from Poland: why is that relevant that these jobs are outsourced? They don't disappear, just move. Also "even" is a little harsh, don't you think?

by Luc 11y ago

hvidgaard 11y ago

Outsourcing has its uses, but the majority of programming jobs cannot be oursourced, and with time it will become even less profitable to do. However, programming any major system today does require extensive knowledge and I dare say a CS degree as well. It's becoming more and more like an engineering discipline, and as such I think we're going to see a shift towards programming being something you need a college degree to perform.

mattmanser 11y ago
Programming a major system has absolutely no need of a CS degree. I know and have worked with programmers with and without a CS degree (I'm one of the ones without). As far as I can tell it's no indicator of programmer skill at all.
- wernercd 11y ago
  The issue is the "maturity" of programming as a complete field. Not only is it a "young" (decades old vs say construction) but it's changing dramatically year over year - whats asked for today is different that 5 years ago... what's acceptable 10 years ago is a deathtrap today. With that being said, how can colleges REALLY train? I got trained at my local community college a few years back (2008-2010) in VB and Cobol. How fast can most places REALLY respond to a moving target like this? Also, a degree is no indication of programming skill... but neither is having a job. You can churn out code, hopping from one place to another, and still be a shitty programmer. That's one of the biggest issues... How can you REALLY tell what someone is going to produce? There are no consistent certification processes and no consistent measure of what makes a good programmer.
- CrLf 11y ago
  Just like building a skyscraper doesn't require a degree. You don't need a degree to lay bricks, pour cement or assemble rebar. But you do if you're the one designing the structure in the first place. There is a lot of knowledge to be gained by experience, but sometimes it's useful to have knowledge gained from books, and in particular from books you had no interest reading in the first place (which is the real value of a degree: forcing you to go through a process that includes stuff you like and stuff you dislike).
  - teacup50 11y ago
    Books are not the sole property of colleges.
    - CrLf 11y ago
      But goals for students with paths including a variety of subjects both obviously useful and apparently useless seems to be (in practice). I occasionally come across situations where those useless subjects suddenly contribute something useful for the problem at hand. I would never have studied them by myself unless forced by the goal of finishing college. At the very least, I would have never studied them to any sufficient depth to make them useful.
      - hvidgaard 11y ago
        It's really not obvious when you're studying. I often use knowledge that seemed useless at my time at university, but it has surprisingly come in handy every now and then.
  - mattmanser 11y ago
    Amazingly, I can design programs too (you arrogant prick). Comparing yourself to an architect and me to a bricklayer. Sorry, is mee too dumb-dumb to read bookie wookie?
    - hvidgaard 11y ago
      It's not about being dumb. You're taking it personal when no offence is meant. Understanding the difference cache hierarchies, or how you reach consensus in a system without a central authority, or to what degree various normal forms of data affect you, or being able to design a sound and complete DSL, or a lot of other things. That is what you get from a proper CS degree. Does that mean that you cannot program of design programs? No, but there are people out there with more education better suited to design, say, a large scale medical system where certain guarantees must be given.

noarchy 11y ago

North American (Canada to be exact) here. I'm seeing jobs being outsourced by some of our local shops to places like Armenia and Romania. You can hire very competent developers on the cheap (relative to North America, at least). I expect more of this in the future.

adrianN 11y ago

So? It's not like the people in Slovenia, Poland, or the Philippines are less intelligent or less well educated than people from Western Europe.

Luc 11y ago
So? So my kids don't live in a low wage country and will need to differentiate themselves to keep making the big bucks.
Crito 11y ago
They are just as smart, but due to the nature of their economies, they can out compete on cost.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

_nedR 11y ago

You advised your kids well, but if this study is to believed, intellectual (including programming jobs) are here to stay for a bit longer : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34066941 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34066941

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

ajuc 11y ago

As a developer from Poland: why is that relevant that these jobs are outsourced? They don't disappear, just move. Also "even" is a little harsh, don't you think?